Committee of the Whole

Good evening.

I'd like to call the special budget committee of the whole meeting to order.

This is February 21st, 2023.

And we recognize the Lukang speaking people known today as the Esquamalt Nation and the Songhees Nation, and that their historic connections to these land continue to this day.

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Second.

So approved or moved by Councillor Rogers, seconded by Councillor Lemmon.

All in favor of approving the agenda.

Any opposed?

None opposed.

Motion carries.

And now we're into a public participation period.

If anybody would like to um to um make a comment to council, uh specifically for the budget meeting for the committee of the whole.

Seeing none in the room, Carl, anybody online?

Mayor Tobias, we have no callers at this time.

So I think we can move directly and pass the mic over to staff for financial plan deliberations.

Very good um Mayor and Council.

I'm glad that we are taking a little bit more time this evening for the for the budget as uh we work through it.

You're going to see in just a few moments here the where we left off after our last budget meeting.

We were talking about capital projects, and we had gotten almost all the way through.

We have one section left, and that is for the parks capital projects, capital projects relating to our parks.

List, but if we do get through that list this evening in the next, you know, but with enough time to continue before the hour is up and the regular meeting starts.

I may suggest that we get started.

We likely wouldn't complete, but we get started with talking about service plan budgets, which are in uh at starting with the yellow tab in your book, and we'll direct you there when we get there.

And we we likely won't get um too far there, but even uh some work done would would be much appreciated.

Our next budget meeting will be tomorrow evening, uh starting at 6 o'clock.

If I'm sorry, starting, oh sorry, that's right.

There's a an event prior in council chambers, an event prior to that, so the budget meeting will start at 7 o'clock tomorrow evening.

I may remind council that that is our last scheduled meeting for budget, and we are sincerely hoping that we can get through the remaining discussions that need to be completed in order for us to put a package together for the public engagement period that starts on March 13.

There is some work to be done after council makes its decisions, and staff would appreciate the time to get that done in a timely manner.

And just a question, perhaps more for Leanne.

Is there any problem with uh shuffling um the folks out by seven for I think that will be fine.

We we should probably give um attendees just a 15-minute warning that we will be moving to a council meeting at 7 p.m.

sharp.

So we can we can facilitate that.

So leave it to staff.

Okay, thank you.

Thanks, Doc.

Starting at the top of the list, we'll just you see the list up on your screen.

Um, and I'll turn it over to primarily it's going to be uh Ivan, director of engineering, and Leanne, director of development services, to uh take you through the list.

Thank you, Don.

Thank you, Mayor.

Tvai asking counsel.

Let's do this.

So um the first one is C031 as page 72 in your book.

And so I'll I can probably try to speak to C O 31 and O35 uh relatively quickly because they're currently in progress.

Uh parks vehicle replacement plan.

This was carry over from last year.

There's a lot of research done on a lot of vehicles and with supply chains being disrupted, it was very difficult to secure vehicles.

But that said, this project is basically 90% complete.

We have purchased both of those vehicles and they are on their way.

So the next one is C 035, and this is on page 76.

Again, carryover from last year.

It was supposed to, the plan was to get it constructed last year, but with um with engineering staffing had with a bit of a turnover there, and uh the deputy director and I catching up on things.

Um unfortunately, uh, we've had to uh delay the actual construction to this year.

So at this point in time, right now, the project is in tender.

So bidders are currently bidding for it.

Um you'll notice that the the prices have uh slightly increased from last year, and that had to do with um updated cost estimates.

But that said, uh council may be aware that uh in 2022 we have applied for a federal grant for natural um infrastructure.

And should those happen, then those the the full extent of this project will go.

But if we don't get funding, then we would obviously cancel out or for or uh pursue it in a different year.

So the next one is C O nine five.

Are we actually debating any of these or talking about them?

Or are we just going through the long list?

Yeah, I would expect if uh council or counselors have uh something to say that they would speak up.

Councilor Red.

So under the View Royal Park development, I mean we've got this, we have a plan that includes what I I I just can't support.

That's like a second trail within the trail and um Veroyal Park.

So to separate the many dog walkers or the dog walkers from the the many pedestrians who just can't abide dogs and and cyclists.

And so I I can't vote for this support this as long as it has that goofy thing in the plan, which makes no sense at all and and I also wonder too given that the amount of money we're spending if we shouldn't actually have a a a bit of a session where the the new council members get to take a look at this because it's in a huge expenditure of money that you probably've never actually actually actually seen in what's happening.

Other thoughts Council Levin my only thought is that it it has been approved by the last it was approved by the last council council and uh it's gone into the budget.

So um you know otherwise, what what was what's the point of approving if if something's going to be undone by the next council over and over?

Uh let's go with councillor Rogers, then Councillor Brown.

Yeah, um, as the Council Lemon said, we've gone through a I think a really well done um um public plan, and uh it was with considerable discussion with and going to the advisory committees, um, and it's it's not only the aspect of the the separation of dogs, you know, the dogs are having the open run in the middle, and uh then with uh sufficient gates, then um um it then separates the dogs from those that are don't like dogs or don't want to be near dogs versus and uh the bikes, but also critically important, it um uh complies with the federal government's regulations of no off-leash dogs in a bird sanctuary.

So that that was a primary deliverable of that.

And in order to, you know, you can have signage, but fencing works the best.

And if even if we were to put a fence all along the stream, we would still come up with the same cost uh thereabouts.

So um the big price tag is is uh working with peninsula streams and the federal government on on marsh line rest uh restoration.

So um I fully support the uh the funding as proposed by staff.

Thank you, Councillor Rogers and Councillor Brown, please.

Yeah, I prefer us to roll through all these items, and if there's specific items that uh we don't like or would vote against that we discuss it at that time because personally I I would like to see all those approved.

I do have one specific one, the signs and wayfaring uh budget um is the only one that uh I have any questions about.

That's that's you can't quite see that on the screen.

It's just down on the um C124 is that the one you're on the discretionary okay.

Uh so I've got one uh council member who um is opposed to the view royal development.

Is there any other comments or I just want to counselor McKenzie clarify?

So if we don't receive the funding, then the the project's not gonna go ahead.

Is that that's that's a good question, Counselor McKenzie.

I should probably clarify that um the project that's currently going under tender right now is for the stormwater management.

So that's the um the swale on the far side.

Plus, if we get funding, it would be for the uh constructive wetland and the saltwater marsh.

So if we don't get funding, then the saltwater marsh and the constructed wetland would be deferred to another year.

I think I only heard one dissenting um voice on that.

So I think we're okay to carry on with that unless there's any other comment.

Okay.

Uh and then over to you, or back to you, I don't.

Thank you, Mayor Tobias.

So the next one is C 095, and that's on page one hundred eight, and that's the Centennial Park Diamond Number 4 fencing Improvement.

Um typically I would say that we should wait till the Helkin Centennial master plan is done.

But this is a simple fence, and safety is kind of paramount when the base when people are playing baseball are around.

So we're hoping to just get this one done.

Seeing no intervention from council, so I think that's uh approved.

Next next one is uh C one one four, and that is the development of road ends project.

And um, so you'll notice that we have about forty thousand dollars a year for a road ends, but this one is eighty thousand dollars for this fiscal year, and the reason why is because uh the um the one that was slated for last year, which is polyplaced, that was cancelled.

So the idea is to carry over that amount for the next one, which is Thomas Park Drive.

Thomas Park Drive, there's actually quite a bit of work that would be involved there.

There's a lot of invasive removal removals that needs to be done.

Um, so the plan is to basically uh utilize the the total and carryover amount plus uh 2023 to do the work.

And and that's specifically referring to the road ends that are bordering on uh Portage Inlet, correct?

I believe there's some that are uh I have to take a look at port which ones there are.

At Portage Inlet, I think there's certainly maybe some, but there is might be some other other local locations as well.

Uh councilor Roger.

Yes, um uh I would suggest that we really have a second look at this.

Um when you go to when we went to Polly Place, we realized that that was not workable.

It was uh um uh real it was and I guess the key point is uh this is uh again a uh migratory bird uh sanctuary.

Um uh does did anyone know where Thomas Park Place is?

Do I know where that is?

Right?

Good.

Oh, I do.

So and and both that and still water, um we already have Centennial Park, Crane Place, and Midwood.

So there's already um um viewpoints, and to um to put in this um this really uh quite unnecessary expensive alteration, I would um really suggest that number two and three be removed for the uh for the preservation of ecological values and and um uh not intruding on on the bird sanctuary number four makes sense it already has a a public access and it's been there for 20 years it needs an upgrade and I would urge um um members to uh go straight to Toby Crescent number four thank you let's go with counselor matzon and counselor McKenzie and this is part of my sort of ongoing concern that for those people who don't have water access, these are the opportunity for them to get water access and views, and the fact that it may miff some of the people who live currently live on the water, no offense, taken over there, but uh I think it's incumbent upon us to uh make as many of these water accesses available to the public as possible, and the fact that there's a bit of uh you may have some birds living in uh down there in the bush, I think the residents access is more important.

Thank you, Councillor McKenzie, please, and then Councillor Qualitage.

Um, I have a question for staff.

So, are the operational costs, would they exist if we didn't go along through with any of these parks?

Is there always going to be an operational maintenance cost to them, even if we don't do them?

Yes, there would be.

Um, although I would say that Thomas Park Drive probably hasn't seen much maintenance in quite some time, just simply by looking at the amount of invasives in the area of the English ivy that's uh that's taking place there.

So if road ends were not uh to be implemented, then eventually they would need to be maintained as part of our invasive renewals or invasive removals.

Um and if road ends were to be implemented, then there would be some maintenance required for that too as well.

For example, if we had paths, uh, we need to make sure they're safe and they're and the trees and foliage is properly pruned to have proper access.

If there is to be a um viewing platform, they would need to be maintained as well.

And I think um I my comment would also be I don't think we should be deciding which parks, like I don't think we'd go into that nitty-gritty.

Okay, thank you.

It's either of yes or no on this.

So that's just my thought.

Thank you.

Counselor Qualit.

Well, I think we should leave it in the budget.

And I'm somewhere in the middle between counselors Rogers and Matson, because we've kind of set precedent here with Pauley Place, and I was against that.

It happened, it's fine, and it's over.

We've let the residents have a say when it comes to these road ends.

We've uh heard from staff and we've heard from local residents with their area knowledge, and things have come up that we didn't know.

I also agree with Counselor Mattson that people that don't have access to waterfront deserve uh a place of uh uh with nature that they can access um you know freely.

So I think we should just leave it in and take it case by case and and go from there.

Thanks, Counselor Quelich.

Um any other discussion on this?

Uh my own thoughts here is um I I would much rather see a concentrated place that we've done some environmental assessment that we're not going to mess things up uh environmentally with the with road ends and access.

Personally, that would make sense to me.

It was a bit more concentrated, but um as well we've got um we've got existing ones that need upgrades or repairs and and whatnot.

So yeah, I I think I'd I'd kind of support taking these on one by one uh with the merits, and I know I don't want to do a hundred thousand dollars environmental assessment on each one of these things to to make it a thing, but um also I just want to be particularly cognizant of the fact that that may have an impact.

Ivan.

Mayor Tobias, yeah, we have a we had a registered biologist uh review each and every site and provide guidelines to make sure that um the environment is preserved.

Yes, and then we can do the neighborhood consultation as well as refer to the parks advisory committee.

Councilor Rogers.

So yeah, I think there's there's avenues to get um uh a broad assessment and um and and for individuals to really go and assess these it's because it's still money, it's still um scene money, I think, that could be spent better elsewhere.

Thank you.

So I'm what I'm hearing is that um there there's a uh a belief in nobody wants this gone completely that we could take it on as uh Councillor Qualwage suggests uh as a one by one case by case basis that staff wouldn't proceed without bringing that that before us, but we'd leave it in the budget.

Is that council Brown?

Yeah, that being excuse me.

That being said, perhaps we could move the 80,000 to subsequent years or or cut it in half, maybe 40,000 and move the other 40 up to the the subsequent years and decide.

So the money there's there's money there, but not necessarily this spent this year, or only half the money is spent this year.

Council Matson.

I I think staff just told us that they weren't too sure how much the cost of doing the last one.

So I don't think we need to at this point in time, they'll come back and they'll they'll tell us what the costs are and we can make the determination and better have the money available than not have it there.

So I don't think there's enough to say that we're not gonna do this.

Okay.

So I think it's the will of council.

Correct me if I'm wrong, this is a hard one, um, to to go ahead with it in the budget, and we'll deal with them as they as they come up.

Okay, Ivan, over to you.

Um Stream Mayor Tobias, this one's actually mine.

Okay, so I'll take this one.

Um so the Heart Road Lime Kiln Heritage Restoration Project, it's C 111 on page 120.

And the project objective is to complete a heritage restoration of the Lime Kiln, landscaping and on-site interpretation of the importance of the heritage structure.

A heritage conservation plan was completed in 2012, and some preliminary stabilization works have occurred since then.

The proposed sources of funding would be provincial grants, so up to 80%, and then casino revenue for the remainder 20% of the total cost.

And then for operational, the it would come out of taxation.

You don't have to worry about it till next year anyway.

Council Lemon?

Exactly.

We don't have to worry about it until next year.

Yeah, I'm uh I don't hear anybody not in support.

I think we if we had to spend the money, there would be.

Exactly.

Thank you, Maya Tobias.

So uh so yeah.

Next one.

So the next one is CDASDL34, Helmkin Centennial Park Master Plan Implementation.

Again, nothing done this year, but something to be done next year.

Any takers to move on.

Comments.

I just wanted to note that because there's no expenditures this year, if no one's commenting, that doesn't mean that they're actually in favor, it.

It just means there's nothing to talk about this year.

Quite taken.

Council Roger.

Well, the only point I think is um whether um I'm hoping that we're not going to implement pickleball in uh in that park.

I think that's still we still got to check from the community and get their feedback on that one.

That's that's a very contentious one.

And this uh project is predicated upon the uh master plan that is on the table.

How about it?

So no further discussion.

Next one.

Thank you, Mayor Tobias.

The next one is uh Park Sunage and Wayfinding C 124.

And that is page 134.

So this project was included in the 2022 2026 financial plan um funded by casino revenue.

And uh the work here will be carried over from last year.

Uh last year, the uh council has decided to move forward with the wayfinding signage uh for Portage Park, and that would be a six-month pilot.

And then should council wish to keep this going, then um there would be subsequent projects in the next few fiscal years, but it's all dependent on whether how well uh this six month pilot is going.

Um at this time, uh parks department has uh defined locations in Portage Park for them.

It just comes down to the manufacturing of the signs and insulation.

Councilor Grant.

Sorry, my young eyes uh didn't miss it up here.

I thought it was down here.

But yeah, uh, I don't I think we I don't think we need any more signs.

I think there's too much sign pollution already.

I'd prefer that money being spent uh somewhere else.

Counselor McKenzie.

Yeah, I agree.

I I don't think it's um if it's just for consistency.

I could see if there's a place that needs a sign because people can't find it, but um I think uh yeah, better spent elsewhere.

Counselor Quellers.

This is uh, and I appreciate the input from from uh both of you.

Uh I actually I actually support this going in.

First of all, it's casino revenue, so that's uh softer landing.

Uh we've also been planning this for several years.

Uh when COVID hit, uh many residents began to use the outdoors more.

Uh this uh will promote health and wellness in our community and allow people uh clear direction on where to go.

Uh we are priding ourselves on improving our parks in View Royal.

We have plans for almost all of them.

Uh we're improving playgrounds, and uh this is part and parcel of that.

And at the end of the day, it's casino revenue.

So it to me it's an easier uh sell.

Thank you, Councillor Quell.

Uh Councilor Wright.

Yes, thank you.

And and um I know in this matter, this always basically began with my um council initiative that we have a map of the park and the locations and the maps um uh would indicate where the washrooms are and the trails and so forth.

And my the staff budget for for my maps and the portage and V-Will Park was 15,000.

And then what happened was I I gather uh we well we got a report uh where it took the um the methodology from uh city of Victoria and translated the city of Victoria's trans uh tourism uh mapping strategies um to this one and uh the costs of balloon dramatically.

Um so um I I believe Council Matson and myself had voted uh uh in a in opposition to this um um very extensive costly um program.

I think it needs to um have a a pullback seriously.

So I I could not and I will not support the um the sign is um uh this the huge amount $170,000 and um uh the feedback that I had from sign shops um what uh it could be to produce the signs in and uh individual parks they were quite aghast and we have not seen it we don't know what the drafts are I um uh before we I I just say that we should cut it out and step back and make sure that we're really doing something that's uh relevant to the mapping that we have to the automated apps, phone apps that people have and um there's a means that uh we can you know probably save a great deal of funds here.

At this point, um I would really suggest stopping and reassessing.

Thank you, Councillor Rogers.

Counselor Lowe.

Um I can see where this is going but but I do want to say I I I support this.

It is, as my colleague said, been in in the plants for a long time.

And personally I thought that Councillor Rogers' initiative to have a signage program for the parks was brilliant.

Signs were developed that were were classy and and and and indicative of the town we are.

Um, and I as as we redo um parks like um Bureau Park, I I think this signage will be helpful.

Not everybody has lived here forever, and not everyone knows which way to turn to go to the beach.

Points uh taken.

Um I just want to make a point myself, and it's just a question.

We put up a sign at significant expense.

What happens if the trail changes?

Um now do we spend a whole lot of money to get a new sign or put another amenity like a washroom or something in?

Like my my concern would be we spent a whole lot of money for a static point in time sign.

Can we modify it or change it, or do we need a whole other sign?

That's a good question, Mayor Tobias.

We've chatted about that at length with our park staff, and basically you if not to say this is what what would be proposed but it'd literally just be a plate on the sign and then if you need to update it you take the plate off and then put something else on there.

But it's something that could be easily uh detached and attached.

Okay and the other point I have if anybody was following the CRD sign design for parks, um it blew the internet up.

And it was particularly based on Thetis uh park where they wanted to actually come in with a sign.

There was I wouldn't expect as much public interest over a signed design, but uh that certainly there certainly was.

So um my lesson learned from that, because I've got to go to a CRD parks meeting tomorrow to discuss this, is that there needs to be some public consultation around some of the sign work or at least the design that we proposed um as part of it.

And I'm thinking simple survey here uh with it if it if it should go ahead.

Um I I don't know I'm I'm a bit of a techie.

I'd just love a QR code to take me to the map and then we that way you can change the map online and you know carry on with it.

But that's that's me and that's most people carry their iPhones in their pocket.

But um I I can certainly get uh where we're going with this and I would think that um yeah I just want to hear from uh other counselors.

Counselor Matthew John you can turn your button off you probably won't need you.

I the bottom line is when we talked about this it was something really simple and it's gotten more and more grandiose and I you know again I think we should do simple little signs like we do at Fetus Lake say you know toilet this way or beach this way we don't need to spend the sort of this sort of money.

Any other comments not hearing a whole lot of support for for this uh in in some instances the with the way it stands right now taking into um consideration the cost and counselor lemons and counselor quality so what do we want to do with this I'm I'm fine with uh passing on it it's uh it's it's fine I I mean I would be happy with smaller signs too it's not a it's not a huge issue for me personally counselor lemon so uh so I think what we've got is I think there's there's support for signs but maybe not at that price tag.

Thank you Mayor Tobias so the next item is C-032 Playground replacement program.

Just bear with me that is page.

Page 74.

And so uh the parks master plan identify identifies um several parks that need replacements, and um there's a schedule for the replacement.

I think it's shown in the additional information.

Um 2022 is supposed to have the replacement of NOAA Park, that's our last wood standing uh playground, and so we are working with vendors right now to get the right equipment there.

It's a we want to get that one done soon because it's a uh we want to make sure that all of our parks playgrounds are per CSA approved standards.

So that's what we're doing right now.

But also 2023 is to also see Chancellor Park, and staff are right now exploring converting this playground to a universally accessible playground.

Um total ticket for that is $400,000 for two parks.

Councilor Rogers.

Um and um they've been very patient.

I can certainly support Nollwood.

It's been a long time coming.

This the wooden structure right now is is in bad shape.

It's in the shade, it's slickery, it's dangerous.

Um staff, could you give us some sense of the split um of the 400,000 between the two parks?

So it looks like um Noll Park would be around a hundred thousand dollars to supply and install.

And then the 2023 budget for Chancellor Park is $300,000.

Uh $100 and $200,000,000.

$100 for uh Nollwood and $300,000 for Chancellor.

Wow.

And where's the funds coming from?

The funds are coming from the parks improvement reserve, 50% of that.

And then the rest is DCC's and casino revenue.

I always thought the CSA stands for no fund toys, but uh let's we remove the the the wonderful merry-go-rounds that they used to have.

I don't think we have much option.

I mean, these things eventually have to replace them anyway, and the funds are there.

But sorry, I can't see.

I would I I mean I haven't looked into this, but um I would have thought there'd be some sort of grants, especially if it's um to could make it more accessible, the park, the chancellor one.

This budget was provided, I think, one or two years ago.

And so as a result, it's that's beyond me right now, but we can certainly look at funding uh opportunities out there to buffer that amount.

But at the end of the day, DCCs, they are funds that are meant for playgrounds, so that fund can't be used for anything else.

And um and the parks improvement reserve is also meant for for um uh for things like this as well.

Casino revenue as well as a uh um something that provides a softer landing.

Uh Councillor McKenzie, am I hearing you right that you'd be supportive if there was a greater look at potentially some accessibility grants?

Yeah, I just think um if we can look into it, that would be good.

So we can save a little bit of the casino revenue.

Thank you, Councillor McKenzie.

Councillor Rudgett.

Yes, I do and I certainly support that.

I I note the staff have also noted um and exploring uh grant opportunities uh for accessible park.

Uh every time we can any week way we can do that, that means then we're going to be able to uh allocate more funds down to the other parks.

And and you know, you see the list here as as time goes on, there's always work to be done in another park and in another park and another park.

So uh the more grant opportunities, particularly for accessibility, let's do it.

So I think there there is support there, Ivan, to go ahead looking at other grants.

The only uh concern that I have specifically about it is I walk my dog by there frequently, uh not off leash in the park, um, but I do walk my dog by there quite a bit.

And uh folks are using the existing equipment um quite extensively.

So I'm just wondering is the new accessible equipment gonna do the same things that's what is already there, because I know folks specifically go for those things.

Just concerned that if we change it up, that might be new, it won't be something that people would use as much, I guess.

Yeah, thank you, Mayor Tobias.

We are well aware that it's probably one of our heavily utilized parks, and we want to make sure that the spirit is maintained.

So I think that's a a green light for that one seeking other grants.

Next, please.

Thank you, Mayor Tobias.

So the next one is the Heddle Trail Prince Robert Drive Fencing.

Next year.

And that's C 019.

Yeah, we can push that.

Ivan, go ahead.

Yeah.

Sounds good.

And the next one is C 120.

Riding Moore replacement.

Uh that's pretty much 90% done.

We've uh we're in the midst of purchasing one.

The next one is uh the small trailer with cargo rack that's Cero nine eight.

This one was an interesting study because uh it would have been easy for us to just find one that we have uh that works right now and then just find and then find a replacement just like that.

But it turns out that they don't make them an end for.

And so as a result, uh what parks is looking at are just trying to find um fixes to the existing, kind of uh adding to it, retrofits, that kind of stuff.

But uh at this time with supply chain being an issue, especially with trailers, which is quite niche, um, we've been having challenges with finding one product.

So uh at this point uh for this project, uh we're look we're still seeking $25,000 to find an option whether it's to retrofit or to purchase a new trailer should it come.

Thank you.

Uh any comments?

Yeah, we see 10,000 for a small trailer with cargo rack for 09H.

You were mentioning 25.

Oh, you know what?

I was looking at writing more replacement.

So thank you for being my eyes.

It is indeed $10,000.

I've just got one related question, Ivan, it's no opposition to this, but I think we heard uh Santa's just bought an electric um uh pickup um that they've put in and I think it's a standard truck but we've also heard from the RCMP in trying out the Tesla that they had to make significant modifications in it.

Just saying if we purchase this would it be adaptable to an EV um when it comes online kind of thing because I would assume that a trailer should have a bit more of a lifespan than a V Yeah as long as the hitch stays the same it should be fine yeah thanks uh I think that one was a go thank you Mary Tobias and thanks for correcting me on that dollar amount um so the next one is C 122 the walk is way community park development and that is page 132.

132.

No, walk a sweet.

Yep.

122 page 132.

So this project uh would be phase two in the creation of the new community park.

Uh what was done last year was uh basically the grading and clearing and grabbing of the land.

And so this next phase would see some engagement as well as uh action on the land.

Um the plan is to basically engage the neighborhood uh a little more so.

We've engaged with uh the BC Transit Neighborhood Working Group, which has provided a great amount of initial engagement, and this part of the project will continue that.

And um staff will report back to council regarding you know what the what the town says or what the the citizens say.

Uh so what would be um good for here?

Um there has been talks about off-leash parks and community gardens.

And in fact, when we went to the Parks Rec um uh parks and recreation advisory committee, and when we said, you know, would an off-leash park or uh community gardens be good for this site, uh they basically said why not do both?

So we'll we'll be working under that lens, but we'll want to kind of hash out the details with the with the public on this.

Council Rogers.

Yes, thank you.

So um just those two options.

I'm just wondering if um uh if individuals wanted some kind of playground equipment, is that possible?

The site is quite sloped, so the amount of uh potential in the area would be limited if we're to also include a community garden and or a uh or an off-leash dog park.

Um that's not to say that uh that's not what the community wants.

So part of this uh engagement process would be to kind of hash that out as well.

And uh the other question, do you think that um uh the is it the 15,000 to contract out or have some kind of study on on um what the options are and what the public wants?

Yeah, it'll be to retain a an engagement specialist to do facilitate the the discussion.

Okay.

Because I'm just wondering, uh it's such a small park and and uh isn't these aren't big ticket items.

Uh it's not like we're going to uh do a uh another centennial park.

Um and let the options are very limited so given that um uh I think I wonder if we could uh do it informally with uh the helps of the Parks Advisory Committee since they've already given wise input already just a thought I mean at the end of the day if it is the will of council to go down that path then uh staff will will work with that councilor matz yeah I know it's not a big number but but I was quite enthused when I saw development rather than engagement and so now that that it's I find out there's spending money on engagement, I whether it's a $50,000 engagement or $10,000 engagement, I just think there's better ways of finding out what our public want other than spending money on consultants.

So I don't want to spend money on consultants to do this.

Are you suggesting we need an engagement specialist, uh, Councilor Batson?

Is that what I'm hearing?

No.

Any other thoughts?

I I would like to see if this does go through because um I think council is quite aware that one of the most divisive things for councils are off-leash dog parks.

Um and uh it doesn't matter what municipality you're in.

Um but can we have an if that goes out uh and if it's approved by council, can we ensure that there is like broad questions there with open comments about what people would like to see with the space as opposed to do you want an off-leash dog park or just that?

Like give a give a bunch of options and allow lots of opportunity for free tax feedback.

Yeah, thank you, Mayor Tobias.

But if it's if we want to expand the question, certainly staff can work with that.

But could this wait until potentially we make um a decision about in engagements and maybe um you know committees and uh some ability for uh staff to go out uh and and create surveys, or is this um is this a rush to get done right now?

Council Lund.

Well, I think it's a rush tonight to either approve or not approve $15,000 and um and see what comes of that and and decide from there.

I have a suggestion.

We could approve the $15,000, but bring it back to committee the whole in terms of how we spend it.

I think there's nods for that.

So approved.

Next.

Thank you, Mayor Tobias.

The next three are actually um no action until 2024.

The disc golf course, Eagle Creek Trail Circular Path, and Nursery Hill to Bryden Trail Connector.

Happy to answer any questions you may on this, but just given the momentum that we have in this uh with respect to the parks discussion, we could always uh defer the discussion next year.

I think I've seen nods from just about everybody except Councillor Brown, which I'm assuming he's a nod, but Councillor Rogers has a question.

Yeah, you know, with respect to uh the guest disc golf course.

Um I know it's uh next year, but we already have that in um um shoreline school.

They they already have a disk golf course there, and it seems to work just fine.

Um it um I I have I personally haven't heard any any hue and cry for it, and um, I guess the thing is the only reasonable park that I with enough space to do this without disturbing vegetation and trees and so forth is View View Royal Park.

I think I think what we're talking really is about budget here.

I know Council Roger till next year.

So anything else that council wants to speak with those I think we can advance those items that for are for next year Ivan Tabas and that concludes the parks uh projects.

Noting we have uh we're fifteen minutes to seven so I ideally it'd like uh perhaps a a short recess in between now and the next uh meeting, so just keep that in mind, Don.

Certainly.

Um given that we only probably have about 10 minutes.

Um perhaps we could turn our minds to the yellow tab in your book, which is about uh let's see, it's about the fifth, the fifth one down.

And that is your and that is starting on page number 49.

So these this section is organized uh in terms of kind of our functional units, general government, protective services, development services, and so on.

And in each section, there is both revenue and expense.

There are several columns, and the middle columns that you see there start with 2023 budget core, and then there's a percent change for 2023 core budget.

You'll see 2023 budget non-core and 2023 budget ops COC, which means it stands for cost of capital, and then a 2023 budget total.

My suggestion would be as we go through these sections is that we focus on the column labeled 2023 budget core, because we've already talked about, well, most of we're not quite through all of the non-core projects, but we've we've we talked we've talked about many of those separately.

And the cost of capital projects, I'm sorry, the cost of capital column is considered when we consider the capital projects.

So those are already separated out.

For comparative purposes, you're given the 2021 actual, the 2022 actual, which is not yet complete, seeing as how we're just wrapping up 2022 year end.

And then you have um columns for each of the future 2024 through 2027 with percent changes indicated.

So what you'll see common to all of these, I'm sorry.

Council Mattson has a question.

So all of these items that uh percentage increases, now do they have tax, they have tax implications?

Or is there so capital isn't mixed up and this is this is all ongoing costs, future costs.

So all the non 23 non-core are expenses we will be carrying forward year after year.

Where the so let me just separate out the core budget is primarily funded from taxation, although there are other sources of revenue, right?

So to say that that's the dollar amount that is covered by taxation is not quite true, but primarily so.

If you recall, um, our operating budget is about, I believe it's 57% uh supported by taxation.

So primarily, yes, everything in the core budget is going to have a tax impact.

The non-core items, as we've talked about, some do and some don't.

So though that's why we we kind of separate those out.

Does that answer your question?

Thank you.

So what you will see common to all of these budgets on the expense side is a large labor component.

You will also notice that for 2023, the core percent change, which compares the core in 2023 to the core budget in 2022, is probably one of the more significant increases being labor.

So those the the labor increase, just so that you know what our approach is to the labor increase, there is a policy and there are decisions of councils that that govern those what happens to our labor budget.

Additionally, there are benefits costs over which we have little control on the increase.

And I can tell you right now that the benefit increase is about 15% the cost of providing benefits, and that's just reflective of the world we're living in today, as is our labor costs.

So while we'll do our best to answer questions about labor, we are somewhat limited.

When I develop with all of my compatriots here, the labor budget, we look at what is exactly happening in that department.

For example, if you have a director leave who was at the highest in the range for salaries, the new director coming in may or may not be at that same range.

And we take that into account.

Okay.

So we are looking at the labor budget at a granular level, not just uh oh, what did we spend last year?

Well, we're gonna you know put an increase in for this week.

We look at it very specifically for the personnel that we either have in place or we expect to have in place for the given year.

Okay, so just so just so you know the rigor that we have around our labor budgets, knowing full well that all of this is tax dollars.

Okay.

So that being said, just um one question on Councillor Mass.

Yeah, I was curious if we're not gonna be able to get too far in this, but I just wanted some clarification on.

So, do you have an overall breakdown on like how much are our labor costs, for example, in this year and what are they gonna be next year?

So, what's the percentage increase in labor costs?

You said 15% for benefits.

I'm wondering how much for non-benefit labor costs.

Sure.

Are you happy with round numbers?

So our labor budget is about $5 million.

Our increase this year is in the neighborhood of about $500,000.

So it's about a 10% increase overall.

And that would include that that includes the um that's not the compens um the benefits component, that's the salaries component.

That does actually include the addition of two counselors and the uh remuneration increase for council.

So that's that is included.

It also includes um a component for uh the municipal staffing at rcmp so that's in there as well and um uh all the firefighter increase um and um the the obviously the volunteers uh and and then the staffing at town hall okay so thank you that's very helpful very painful but very helpful i think we're getting close to the hour dawn how would you like us to proceed when we come in uh to specifically review for wednesday night's session.

That's tomorrow, right?

It is tomorrow.

It is tomorrow, and and you know, we're we're hoping that to be the last uh meeting.

What we have left to go through yet is the parking lot that we need to make final decision on a few of those items.

My understanding was that council, correct me if I'm wrong, wanted to look at all of the new positions kind of as as a group.

Okay, so we're gonna do that.

Uh then uh you know, we we do need to make sure that council is satisfied with our operational budgets.

We can do that a couple of different ways.

One might be for each director to give you a high level overview of each one of their um budget areas.

Alternatively, we could give you homework to have a look through and highlight the areas where you have questions and just do our very best to answer your questions at that at that point.

I'm not sure which of those might take less time because we also have an and and I am cognizant, and in the past, it has been quite a uh a tough conversation, and that is to go through all of our reserves and transfers and finally at the end of the evening tomorrow, land on a percent tax increase.

That is the decision that I need to walk away with in order to build the budget for the public.

So so that's a whole nother component that we haven't touched on much yet.

Just I want to point out that that's this is all gonna be done in an hour.

Two hours.

No, we're gonna need another meeting, not just saying.

Uh not gonna happen.

Yeah.

So uh if yeah, and uh we'd need the homework done by tomorrow night is really what we're talking about here.

Um do we have room on Thursday with council's availability?

Because I don't think we're gonna be able to do it, uh finish it in two hours.

It doesn't it doesn't please me to say this, but uh councillor Brown then councillor Lemon, please.

Yeah if it's um if it's not during the day.

That's fine, yeah.

Yeah I'm I'm saying seven and beyond for me personally councilor from staff last week was do or die tomorrow in order for them to have the window to to do the communications and and consultation with the public so I c can I ask what one more question please um how many in the parking lot can can we like not can we just knock those things off and get them done quickly, do you think?

Very hard for me to say.

You will recall that almost all of development services, non-core items are in the parking lot.

Sometimes those can be lengthy, but it's completely up to council.

And I think given our trajectory, I I would love to be as optimistic as you are, Counselor Lemon.

I would love it, but I I don't think that uh we're gonna get there.

Counselor Rogers and Councillor Matsu Blue.

Oh, we've got two options.

If we want to get it finished tomorrow, then we do it until we drop dead, you know, all the way to the at 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, and then we get it done.

Or if we don't if we're gonna quit at nine, then we have to do the next day.

I just wanted to point out the obvious that we're probably at this point still talking around 12% tax increase.

So I think it's incumbent upon us to spend the time necessary to get a budget we can all live with.

Okay, so I think the real decision on the table is do we do a marathon tomorrow night or do we spread it over two nights?

Feedback thoughts.

Sorry, just to counselor uh sorry, just to double check.

It's it would be okay.

Like Thursday would still be enough time.

Yeah.

Yes, thank you.

Okay.

And Councillor Quellowish, you've been rather quiet on this.

I'd love to hear your view.

Um, like I mentioned last meeting, due to the short notice, uh, unplanned meetings, my availability is limited.

I can meet during the day on Thursday.

And I know that's uh again problematic for other council members, but since the short notice, it's it's not gonna work for everybody.

Okay, so what I propose to council, and if it's okay with staff, because you have to be here for this.

Um why don't we make best tracks tomorrow with a objective of completing it tomorrow night?

Should there be requirements for another opportunity?

It will be a brief one on Thursday starting at seven.

Is that worthwhile?

So it it will go tomorrow night until we drop essentially, and then if required, we'd we'd uh come back Thursday at seven.

Staff thoughts That should work.

We um we do need to focus our time on those items that impact the tax bill.

That is your focus.

A lot of the things that are on the parking lot are not funded by property taxation, and so we might want to defer those to a future meeting and maintain them as part of the budget, but definitely discuss them at a later date.

So if we focus on those things that impact the tax bill, then we can probably do it.

So that'll be the objective for uh tomorrow evening, and we'll start at seven uh tomorrow evening following the um business mixer and um uh with the intent on soldiering through, and then if required, seven o'clock on Thursday.

Okay.

And uh we don't have any time for a break, but I could try to delay things if somebody urgently required a bio break and we need to go to questions uh before we move on.

Do I have anybody in the room with questions for counsel regarding the uh special budget committee meeting of the whole?

Hearing none.

Do I have anybody online, Carl, for questions for the uh special budget meeting for the committee of the whole?

Mayor Tobias, we have no callers at this time.

Don, your task for next year is to make the budget proceedings much more exciting.

So we draw some.

Yeah, I think I've still got no, I don't have quorum even to terminate it right now, but let's do it.