Public Hearing

Good evening, View Royal.

I'll call the uh public hearing to order uh for Tuesday, February 3rd, 2026, and start off with a territorial acknowledgement that uh we recognize the Quangwan speaking people known today as the Esquimalt Nation or uh Kosapsin Nation and Songhees Nation and their can historic connections to these lands continue to this day.

Um I'll state the obvious that normally it's just Donna in here, but I'm glad that every once in a while that something appears on the agenda, maybe two items on the same one, that we get uh a good representation from the community.

So welcome all of you for showing up in person.

Um I appreciate it, I'm sure council does as well.

Uh can I get an approval of the agenda for the public hearing, including the late submissions of which there are two emails, please.

So moved.

Second.

Moved by councilor Brown, seconded by councillor Lemon.

All those in favor.

Any opposed?

Seeing none opposed, motion carries.

I've got a lengthy thing that please bear with me that by legislation I have to read through for a statement of public hearing procedure.

The proposed bylaw has been introduced and has received second reading of council.

Before the bylaw can be legally adopted by council, it must receive two more readings.

Your input via the public hearing process is most important to council in making a decision.

At this public hearing, any person who believes that their interest in property is affected by the proposed bylaw amendment shall be given an opportunity to be heard.

However, it's important that all who speak at this meeting restrict their remarks to matters contained in the bylaw, and it is my responsibility to ensure that all remarks are so restricted.

This evening we'll hear uh presentation from staff, and then we'll hear from you during comments from the public portion of the agenda.

Just a reminder that this is maybe one of the last bastions of democracy left in North America.

So please treat it as being a second sacred place.

Council chambers is a safe, respectful, and inclusive space.

All members of the audience are asked to refrain from clapping, cheering, or openly expressing your opposing opinions when others are speaking or when they are done speaking.

Even courtroom murmurs are not encouraged.

When it is your turn to talk, do not speak disrespectful about anybody else, including counsel or staff, or rude or use rude or offensive language.

Council wants to hear the views of those participating in the meeting, and that's you, in an open and impartial form.

Just a tidbit or a pro tip.

What really helps me when you talk to something is if you talk about how it impacts you.

I don't care about the people on your floor or your neighborhood, how this change affects you as a person, and that I think allows council to really get the gravity because you're speaking on its effect on you personally.

You may then give us the benefit of your views.

If you wish to provide comments virtually, the chat feature will be open for you to submit your comments.

Again, we ask you to provide your name and just your street name without putting your your the number of your host or apartment in there.

Your comment will be read out at uh after the uh in room uh comments uh by a member of our webcast team council uh or members of council may if they wish ask questions of you uh however the main function of council council members this evening is to listen to the views of the public and that is you it is not the function of council uh at this public hearing to debate the merits of the proposed bylaw amendment with you um the meeting will be recorded by participating in the webcast your consenting to being recorded and the recording will be available forever on the town's website um after the public hearing has concluded uh the council may without further notice give whatever effect council believes proper to the representation made at the public hearing the public is reminded that after the public hearing council cannot hear any new information on this topic until a decision about the application is made so we'll remind you again but specifically if you're call up and give us your um your opinions and your views during the public opinion portion um that's not an opportunity for the meeting portion to do the same thing because we shouldn't um actually digest any new information after the public hearing is is finished up so I'm gonna uh turn to Jeff to read the statement of publication for the public hearing.

Thank you, Mayor um the the uh the notice for this public hearing was mailed to 852 owners and residents of properties within a 400 meter radius of the subject property on January 22nd.

And it was on January 26th.

The notice was posted on the notice board at the town hall on the town's website and on the town's social media platforms in accordance with town bylaws.

Thank you and you've already provided the um uh your report or are you going to highlight that again uh for the public hearing just yes I can uh present on the bylaw a little bit um the purpose of this presentation is to uh summarize the proposed bylaw and uh talk about uh a consideration to rescind a requirement for a covenant associated with uh with the rezoning uh next slide please so the subject properties 258 helmkin road um and it's uh in 2021 the the official community plan was amended and the property was rezoned to permit the develop the uh development of uh 55 condominium apartment units and approximately approximately 583 square meters of commercial space on the ground floor um in june 2025 the building was completed um and the uh unfortunately since then the commercial space uh attendant has not been found that for for that commercial space.

So the applicant has come forward with a proposal to add new uses to uh to provide the uh provide uh next slide please to provide some uses that would activate the ground floor similar to um other mixed use buildings that we see in kind of urban villages throughout the throughout the region um this uh proposal has uh come to council five times now members can come into the whole five times now as as the applicant and council have worked to um to consider a proposal that that works in the original intent of the uh the zoning which to provide a space that the where the community can gather and um to um you know to meet some of their some of their needs so next slide please uh the property has a site specific zone and the uses permitted that for that include residential above with commercial on the ground floor the use was was specifically for neighborhood grocery uh accessory uses include home occupation for the residential use and there were some conditions of use uh regarding hours of operation and uh and requiring that you know the commercial be located only on the ground floor uh because the space is vacant the applicant is has been investigating other uses um next slide please and uh the proposals come to council several times with different ideas such as including uh cafe use medical clinic use office use uh retail use uh personal service establishment which is like a tailor or you know hair salon or something like that things that deal with service to people um so throughout the series of meetings, the uses have been uh refined to remove the uses.

So the only two additional uses being proposed are CAFE and medical clinic.

With respect to the cafe use, um there would be a uh requirement that 74 square meters at least would be allocated to that use.

So that's roughly 800 square feet for uh cafe which is uh comparable to other cafes in the area in this case likely you know um this is likely a space where production may not be done off site on site but um but coffee and and and seating areas would be within the within the space um so the proposal is to add cafe and medical clinic use uh neighborhood grocery is still a potential a uh um permitted use so um it could be one or a mix of all those uses uh currently there is one potential tenant uh that would be a medical clinic but uh but the interest here is looking at the long term uh the uses in addition to cafe would still be neighborhood grocery or clinic um or some variation of the of the of those three um so as a consequence of refining the uses an earlier um motion from council for covenant to secure the uh covenant uh to secure medical clinic or neighborhood grocery use um for a minimum of 10 years is no longer necessary so after the public hearing council may consider a decision or for that covenant it's no longer necessary because those are the only uses permitted by the uh by the uh by the zoning.

So that kind of summarizes all the technical details of the bylaw.

Um next slide, please.

Um so the recommendation is to uh receive the report from uh senior planner, and uh if there's any if that's any questions, um we can answer them.

Thank you.

I'll turn to my colleagues for questions.

Uh counselor.

Yes, thanks, Jeff.

So um, like when this first came about, we were promised a grocery store, and we're not getting the grocery store, and we just had an empty building for a year.

Is there anything to ensure that we're actually we would actually get the cafe?

I mean, other so you've zoned it, but they could just again do the same thing they did before and just leave an empty space for uh forever.

Um mayor, um, so the minimum is at 74 square meters.

It's it's uncommon to do this, but in this zone, it's because it's a site-specific zone.

Uh, minimum of 74 square meters is allocated cafe use, can't be used for anything else.

There is a risk of that if you cannot find a tenant that the space could be vacant.

Um, but the zoning is specifically to preserve the space for that use.

I guess another part of this is uh they just can't stick use it for storage space if they don't use it.

I mean, if there's not a cafe in there, can it just has to remain totally empty or they can just store all the materials from whatever other endeavor goes in there.

Again, I I just don't have any confidence in this developer, given what's happened in the past.

So I'm looking for some sort of assurances that at least we get the cafe.

Uh so the mayor, because the way this the zone is structured, uh that space can only be used for cafe, not for storage.

I've got a question, Jeff, and it's about parking related to uses.

So has like how many stalls have we got?

And I know there's a mix of indoor and I think underground.

How many stalls are there for the commercial space in total?

Through you, the mayor, um, there are 29 spaces allocated to this space, um, which is adequate for a neighborhood or medical clinic cafe actually has a higher parking ratio.

And at um for the proposed um floor space for the for the for the cafe, it would you would end up with probably a shortfall of two spaces.

Uh, but that can be addressed through a variance or through uh through a payment in lieu.

Uh there are 18 spaces on the surface behind the building and 11 underground.

Okay, so and that would be for a clinic plus cafe, correct?

Both of those operating, that would be we would have a delta of missing two spaces, right?

Thank you.

Any other questions from council?

Council Rogers.

Yes, uh uh Jeff, what's um what's the total square feet, square footage of the commercial space total?

Um it's it's approximately 583 square meters, so over 6,000 square feet.

So how many square feet?

Over 6,000.

6,000.

Close close to 6300.

Okay.

Um again, related to the mayor's uh question, how much parking um would the uh medical office require?

Um through the mirror, we I think 20 we combinated within the 29.

Sorry, I mean 29.

Um is there enough for to also parking for a cafe.

Um that's where the that's where the variants would would come in.

Thank you.

Any other questions?

Your microphone's still on, counselor Rogers.

Uh seeing no other questions, I think that um uh brings us down to receive the can I get a motion to receive the report for to council.

Moved by councillor Brown, second by councilor Mattson.

All those in favor?

Any opposed, seeing none opposed, that motion carries.

And I think this comes down to uh just outlining the bylaw for consideration.

Um and do we have a slide for that of the actual bylaw?

Um mayor, we don't, but we do have a bylaw that we do have one slide that talks about the land use part of it.

Um yeah, if you could back up to that so that because we're just saying a number and people can't see the actual bylaw that was being proposed that we're actually having a hearing on about the third slide.

Uh slide number four.

Sorry, I'm just having a little bit of trouble with it.

I'll see if I can get it to go.

That one there.

One more, please.

Okay, Jeff, if you could just highlight the change to the bylaw so everybody's really clear on that.

So the previous bylaw or the bylaw that reads now, is that that use can only be for groceries slash cafe or just grocery?

Uh cafe would that's the current bylaw.

Um cafe would be permitted as part of the neighborhood grocery use.

Okay.

And so the change, this change would add uh medical clinic to the use, and that's it for the change to the bylaw with the caveat of the square footage for the cafe that would have to be included, correct?

That's right.

Okay, so just so that council is clear and the public is clear, that makes it clear for uh I think everybody now.

Thank you, Jeff.

Elna, is it uh uh do I read out the bylaw in full, or is it just um uh it's been posted?

That's what uh is there for?

Thank you.

So we can just move on now to um comments from the applicant if you'd let if you wish.

Um Jeff, do you have any more?

Good evening, your worship, members of council.

My name is Niall Palteel with Island View Land Management.

Speaking this evening on behalf of the owners of the property, the Singera family.

I'll begin as well just by respectfully acknowledging that we are on the traditional territory of the Lakwangan speaking people.

In 2020, 2021, standing before council in applying for rezoning and development permit.

However, after three years of work in the marketplace, diligently to secure a grocery tenant, various sizes, scales across Canada and as well locally, the market reality was very clear to us.

And that of course, this is on the heels of this commitment was largely made through the planning process which were pre-pandemic, and we're now dealing with post-pandemic trends and realities.

We've identified instead a fantastic owner operator ready to bring essential medical services to the neighborhood, as well as operating a modest cafe space.

Given the physician shortage across the South Island and the specific needs in our community here in View Royal, we believe that this is the best possible alternative outcome.

We expect to take our lumps with neighbors this evening, and we understand their disappointment.

We're also grateful for the quality physicians who have come to the table at this hour, specifically because of this location's ample space, access, egress, and parking of accessibility.

This proposal aligns objectives identified by View Royal through both the South Island Prosperity Partnership, as well as directly within council's own strategic priorities for access to physicians and medical use.

We're grateful for your leadership and for staff's collaborative work in refining our proposal and proposed bylaw to date to get us to this point.

We humbly asked for the continued opportunity to earn your confidence in enabling this exciting needs-based use that will serve the neighbors and the community and the residents of View Royal today and for years to come.

Your worship, if you deem it appropriate, both myself and the family will be available at the uh end of the public hearing as well to address any further questions or uh remarks based on feedback that you hear this evening.

Uh, and we'll of course make ourselves available to answer any questions or continue to be uh uh nimble to the uh to the requests or ideas that come from uh council and the public.

Uh thank you very much and uh yeah appreciate your deliberation this evening.

Thank you.

We'll probably have some questions for you if you don't mind.

Yeah.

Um I'll I'll start with one, as my colleagues probably might think of others.

Um, from your research, we've gone through a phase and and you know the world has changed entirely, not just with uh COVID and post-COVID.

Um, but if we left it open for a year longer, do you see that changing or the market changing to be able to um uh uh accommodate maybe an emerging local grocer or a smaller grocer that would um take up on on lease in that space.

Thank you for the question.

Um it it's difficult to speculate on a market answer like that.

Um businesses and business models do emerge.

The the short answer at this point is I don't believe so.

Um, and and two examples I would say in real life within the region that would kind of give us an example of this is in uh Broadmead Village.

There was a uh they called it a grotisserant, which was kind of a cute grow grocery cafe uh combination space, which was in about a 3,000 square foot um, you know, so smaller but similar size location.

Uh it closed after uh about two and a half years of operation.

Um, and then on the Converse side, when we think about our favorite local um grocery grocery stores that are more neighborhood in scale uh like uh a red barn as an example the latest um model of of red barn uh which was opened was at the uh sand down racetrack in north sandwich uh which is in a uh 25,000 square foot footprint um so them being the local boutique grocery store are looking to bigger spaces um as is urban grocer and others and uh the smaller ones that have attempted to exist in these kind of retail commercial areas have have not been successful to date um and that did prove out during our three years of market sounding while those two trends both emerged so again i you would you would never say never but given that we've done our level best over the last three years our real life anecdotal data re relates to what the market tells us in other instances as well thank you um council council rogers yes thank you uh so I hear do I hear you say that you have a um a um tenant who's a doctor and also willing to put a cafe in yes and so did you understand the number the number of parking stalls and did you find or he or she find that workable yes I I think that the um the the the the fact is is that the um the the parking bylaw in in view royal is very specific to square footage and uses.

Um, the cafe space is um based on obviously a a a higher expectation of number of stalls per square foot compared to grocery, et cetera.

I would imagine in peak hours, uh a how had a grocery store gone there, it would have likely driven even more crap traffic than a combination of a cafe and um medical use would.

Um, so um not to speculate, but I I think that in today's world, again, I it's it's interesting we talk about these a lot, but COVID trends have have come and affected so many things that we talk about nowadays.

One example being the medical use that maybe used to draw a higher number of individual like individual vehicles per square foot, may not require as many because now we're in a in a world where specific appointments and online booking is so much more regimented than it used to be.

I mean, I don't know about you, like even you know, you used to drop into your barber and and just show up and sometimes it was an hour, sometimes it was five minutes.

Now you're you're booking in in you know 15 minute or half hour increments.

So I think that the that my understanding through our our engagements with our prospective tenant to date is we do believe that the um equilibrium between visitor parking, commercial parking, and those 29 stalls that have been allocated both at grade and below grade for uh retail use or for for this service commercial use should be um very satisfactory uh for these two complementary uses.

Thank you.

Any other questions for the applicant?

No, saying that.

I think that's no more questions from us, but thank you for um entertaining our questions and thank you very much for speaking with us.

Thank you, worship.

And now I'm going to turn from comments to the public.

We'll start in the room first.

Can I just see a raise of hands?

That's why I had to put my glasses back on.

How many people intend to talk on this topic?

One, two, three, four, five.

Okay, thank you.

And for those, uh, how many people are here to talk about garbage bins?

Nobody okay.

So when it comes to talking about garbage bins and the garbage contract, nobody's allowed to talk.

I'm only kidding.

Um, that's what I was expecting some of you here for.

Oh, yeah, we've got at least one.

Okay, that's good.

Um, so would the first you'll have to wrestle each other to the ground to make your way to the podium.

Um, and whoever wants to come and chat first, then just start with your name and your uh your street name and not your building number.

Alexis Drosdrill, Palmer Station.

I feel obliged to come up here because we are uh potentially looking at the spot.

I'm a business owner and I run a small surgical clinic with my husband, who's the physician in town.

Um and I keep uh and business is really my passion.

I'm my biggest passion is trying to provide care to the community, and there's so many gaps in care as we know.

Um and one of the biggest barriers to making it is to be able to make it financially reasonable for families like us to come and provide these services and to have other physicians come in and join us and to make it financially feasible for them.

And so I have obsessed over these numbers, and it it's very, very difficult with the amount of patient flow that you need to get people to GPs and get people to specialists.

Parking does become a really big issue.

Like you would need at least the parking for people to be in their appointments and out.

And if you can't do that, then the physicians can't give people care.

They can't pay their rent or their mortgage at the end of the day.

They can't pay for their overhead.

So these kind of things come up.

I've looked at grants, I've looked at ministry funding, I've looked at all kinds of ways to get really creative.

The communities that are doing it in different ways are like Colwood and Esquimalt, where the cities come in.

And we're trying to do this independently, but it it really comes down to parking and square footage and making it all make sense.

One concern that I have is that I live and I've been traveling right next to the building for the past three years.

So my kids and I are like, can't wait to walk for milk and can't wait to sit with the dogs on a patio.

So that's not, it's just if I could provide more services and I can get in there and make the numbers make sense, then that's what it would all come down to.

Oh, wait, I was gonna say Esquimold and Call would have cities that have come in and they're paying the physicians as GPs, so those GPs don't have to pay the overhead.

So I've heard from GPs in our community who have said, well, if they have to pay big overhead, then or management fees or what however they're gonna be compensating, then it's gonna be really hard to recruit them and bring them in.

Those are my biggest, but I've spent days on these numbers, guys, like days and days a day.

So that's fine.

Thanks.

I think Councillor Rogers, are you okay with the question as well?

Um I think Counselor Rogers had a question about um were you interested in operating the cafe as well as part of the endeavor?

I was really into it, and I tried to run the numbers and make it make sense, but it it really comes down to amount of doctors, how the patient flows from room to room, how the doctors would flow from room to room, and can you pay for a nurse, a medical office assistant?

I run it with nurse practitioners, I run it every kind of way that I can, and that 800 square feet would make a really big difference to any medical, you know, group coming in, unless you had a really big chain or a lot of funding, private funding coming through.

And we're just a monpa.

Thank you.

Next person that wants to speak on the topic of the um of the rezoning application.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh Kathy Blanchard, I live on Island Highway.

And the last person who spoke, I couldn't understand whether that was the tenant who was interested, okay, but isn't interested.

I'm just completely lost with what that conversation was telling us.

I I think I'll paraphrase an interest in the clinic, um, but not necessarily in the cafe, just to make the numbers work.

It just sounded like the parking wasn't going to work even for the clinic.

So anyway, I will leave that alone.

Um, I have a question.

Um, one of the things about the public hearing was it says permit and medical clinic as commercial uses on the ground floor in addition to neighborhood grocery.

Then down in the ad, the following conditions of use, it speaks of a minimum floor area of 74 square meters on the first story.

Is the first story the ground floor?

Yes, it's the same space.

Okay.

Um, also, I believe the original zoning for this property, it included accessory use as being a delicatessen, a bakery, and a cafe.

So I was wondering why those other two were eliminated from uh the application and the cafe stuck because it seems like if you are actually wanting to provide something for the community, the close community, it would be uh those would be viable options.

I can get you the answer to that.

So can we do those in parts?

Leanne, you've got an answer to that one.

Yeah, thank you, Mayor Tobias.

Um, so through through the mayor.

Um, the original zoning, um, which only allowed for uh neighborhood grocery and where the delicacy delicate I can't say that word right now and the cafe, um those were accessories, so they they were not standalone uses.

So you could not have a cafe without the grocery store.

So now we are the zoning is written so that you could have a cafe as a standalone use, and the minimum uh floor area of that is 74 square meters, but you couldn't have a cafe before without a grocery store.

You couldn't have a cafe without a grocery store.

And so now we pulled the cafe out so you could have a cafe with the medical grocery store.

So why didn't you pull out bakery?

I mean, eliminating the grocery altogether and have all these other viable little things that are attractive to people in the community.

So it just seemed odd to me.

Um, yeah, those uses are also under uh retail, and um that was removed from the zone.

Okay, because they were considered accessory uses under the definition of neighborhood grocery.

So I wouldn't imagine that a neighborhood grocery could have retail services, but uh that was one of my things.

How many seats are proposed for the cafe?

How many what sorry seats that you're going to sit in?

Yep.

Um we don't have that level of detail as part of a rezoning application.

That is more sorted out at the building permit stage when we're talking about occupancy, the occupancy load of the building.

But it would be a reasonable thing for us to wonder: is it going to be because cafes are pretty loose definition as well as to what that constitutes?

Will they be serving food?

Um, if so, are there places to sit, or is the seating area all to be outside on the patio, so not viable at all in the winter time?

It just seems like a clearer definition of what they're offering uh may prove useful to people in the decision making.

Um and uh the let's see.

Um another comment hiding over here.

Oh, I was so the tenant they're proposing is a surgical center as opposed to a medical office per se.

So the people just come and stay there all day as a surgical center, or what happens there?

Because the parking is an issue if you are having people come and you know what they're coming for.

Are they coming for a 20-minute appointment or are they coming for a four-hour stay?

And I don't know the answer to that one we'll help you out a little bit yeah through the mayor I through a rezoning we don't get into that level of detail in terms of how long um a patient would be um at the clinic if it's gonna be 20 minutes or if it's gonna be an hour it obviously depends if you know if the physician is is running behind schedule the rezoning just really focuses on use and that in this case is medical clinic okay well it was um an incentive I live in Lions Cove and it was an incentive to the council not the town council but the strata council of the time that there was going to be the grocery store and the cafe and possibly a deli and a bakery and so there were concessions that were made relative to high how high the building was going to be trees got removed it was a significant impact that we are now being left with a giant building that has windows facing the west wing of Lions Cove so there is an impact to us with basically nothing that is um nothing that is presented here that would be an incentive for me to be in favor of this thank you any questions I don't think so thank you thanks next person just on the public hearing topic anybody else want to address council and just start with your name and your street name.

Oh my name is Donna Marin and I live on Stewart Avenue.

Oh we just need to turn you on first.

There we go.

I'd like to echo the comments of the previous commenter, but from the perspective of a house owner.

We actually can see the top floor whereas before we could see trees and we it really does appear that you know to build to get that extra floor it was obviously you know financially a great thing for the the builders and the medical clinic is laud laudatory because you know generally I mean of course we all want medical services to be accessible but is that really going to help the the neighborhood the people who are actually seeing a building instead of trees um so I would suggest that this the other thing that I have not understood is is just the role of rent in finding an appropriate tenant I mean was there any effort to negotiate a different rent or because truly the neighborhood was promised a grocery store and that's what we would really like to have as a quid pro quo for that great big building so thank you.

Thank you very much.

It is yeah I'm Lucinda and I live at uh on View Royal 565 Uroyal anyways in the late 90s I was a new kid on the block.

Now I'm the old old, one of the old lots of families, lots of children, and it was very, very vibrant.

By the way, Marilyn, the person that would host our um uh street party passed away three weeks ago.

We have a street party every day.

Very it's a lovely place to live.

It can't beat it.

Wonderful.

And nearby was uh a clinic doctor's clinic.

He so many people went to this see this this clinic up the street across from the old fire hall which is no longer there we've got a really nice fire hall um lots of people would go to this clinic and your children would go and um when he retired everybody was left without a doctor for around this area no doctor I can count myself in one of the as one even though I've looked hard and and uh um yeah looked really hard can't find a doctor so when Dr.

Stanwood and his clinic is right across from the near the fire hall um everybody just scattered there are people that need a doctor needles facilities.

Having doctors, you know, and looking after health is an important part of life and part of being in the community and thriving in the community.

And I think it would be a travesty if we don't look at having this place for medical services.

Forget about trees.

I mean, maybe uh plant some uh uh other trees on your property, uh or maybe even ask the developer if you maybe put some trees behind there, whatever.

I know, but it is so minuscule.

Uh that it just not really an issue.

And there's lots of grocery stores around, coffee shops around, but what we re need now and going forward is medical services for people, and a lot of us people now are we're aging, and it was so convenient to have to be able to go and and have a doctor and in our community, and it wasn't a doctor, Dr.

Stanwood and retired.

There were like three or four uh doctors there, but then it shut down, and I think it's a a daycare now for old people.

I'm just gonna get you to sum up a little bit.

Anyways, so I from the bottom of my heart, I would be so thankful if people could could be on board with having this space allocated for um medical purposes.

Um yeah, for medical purpose.

But thank you.

Thanks, folks.

Is there anybody else that wanted to speak on the rezoning application?

Hello, my name's Carl.

Live on Stewart Avenue.

I just have a clarification.

And sort of wanting to better understand the nature of the medical office.

Because I feel like that's a very generic term and that could take a lot of forms.

You know, like we could be dealing with specialists or we could be dealing with GPs.

And so, and how do we know, you know, what we're gonna get?

Because you know, there there is a difference in sort of the uh community's impact, you know, to have a specialist versus a GP that everybody can.

So is there any sort of comment that the I guess owner can provide to that effect?

Uh just wanted to separate the intended um uh tenant or the interested tenant and what we rezone it for.

Once we zone it for medical clinic, we don't have a say in the type of medical clinic that goes in there, even though we may prefer uh a GP run clinic that could provide primary care.

The zoning level does not get into the type of clinic it actually is.

Sure.

So there's no there's no way to know you would need a crystal part.

Correct.

Or or maybe so maybe there would be um a party that would be interested in uh providing primary care, and then at the last minute they pull it, and maybe specialized care would follow them.

And once it's zoned that way, it's zoned for a clinical use.

So we don't get drilled down, unfortunately.

We'd love to just deliver as much primary care as we possibly could, but so that's not a feature of zoning that you can't designate the type essentially.

Okay.

That clarifies my question.

Thank you.

It's like uh if it was a gas station, I couldn't tell you what type of gas station it is or what services it provided.

Susan So I'm gonna try and keep this because there's a lot of different things, and it's unfortunate that we can't get more concise as to what we need and how it is rezoned, because I think that's the bigger issue of it all.

So you asked at the beginning of the meeting, uh, Mayor, is how it would affect my life.

Um, it affects my life in a lot of different ways.

First of all, the grocery, I think it would first of all, it would help me for convenience.

It would help me not to, as everybody is constantly talking about, not take my car to go and get groceries.

It would offer me the ability to maybe, and other people to maybe finance my groceries in a different way, where I don't have to do groceries for a whole week or two weeks for other obvious reasons.

Um, I think we need to think about people, how they spend their money and how they can spend their actual money that they have from week to week.

So those are some of the elements in regards to that, and how that would affect my life and maybe some of the people that I know of.

Um, the other thing is I have seen some areas, and there's one in specific, which is not the root cellar, it's not um the urban barn, it's not Red Barn, but it is the old farm, which is a smaller venue, and it has opened in a very similar situation across town and seems to be very successful.

So it's I think it's easy now to say pre-COVID, post COVID.

I think we need to get away from that because I think that is it's not realistic.

People still need food, people still need services, people still, whether it was post or pre or during, that thing still stays, remains the same.

So I think that we were promised a grocery.

I think we should request the same level of commitment from the developer.

And I guess the root cause is why is it still vacant?

What has been actually the real it was said that people were looked into and and courted and all that, but were they?

Is it a space?

Is it a parking?

Maybe there needs to be more conversation about that.

The other point I have is that in regards to a coffee shop.

Here we go with another coffee shop.

We have one right across the street.

We have one that we've just recently, as a town opened up right beside Masala Roots.

Are we giving him the opportunity to develop his business?

And down the road, we have Iluka and we have the one at Admiral's.

We have coffee shops.

I don't think we need another coffee shop personally.

I would not go to a coffee shop, so that wouldn't impact my life.

I think we have enough office space.

I think that people are trying to be coerced back into their office spaces.

So office space, I don't think would help the community, and it wouldn't help my life.

Focus on hair, coffee, things like that.

I don't think those are on the rezoning.

No, but it was talked about this afternoon today.

But on the rezoning right now, it's just coffee, grocery, but then it was talked about retail.

So we tell I think that was a sidetrack.

So those are the only three things.

So that was sidetracked from staff, so that's where I'm latching on to that.

Because also with a coffee shop with others possible retail, has the venting been properly set in?

So that's a question.

Is that going to cause problems for the tenants that are living in the building?

So I have a lot of questions, and I guess the biggest question is has the developer and the real estate person, the company that they're working done their due diligence.

And what does this state going forward that if we're asking and giving something up front and requesting something in the future and it's come back well can't do it so sorry need something else what does that say for our town thanks anybody else that wants this week go ahead okay Mr.

Mayor members of the council um my name is Volker Damman Palisia Avenue um just wanted to continue what Susan said and I'm basically moved by the same thought pattern I think the the city the town gave the developers something for something to receive in the future the developer has put up a nice building very nice and modern but they haven't given back they haven't fulfilled their obligation they're coming up with reasons why they can't do it but without really underlying what they've done and what the stumbling blocks are.

There are other chains than the big uh grocery chains and I'm just looking at where I've lived before I grew up in Germany I've lived in England and Quebec and in Quebec we have something called the dépanneur which is the little corner store at the end.

In England we have these little corner shops that run by a very derogatory name but they are extremely practical they're often family operated and we don't have to shoot for the stars and get something big like a red barn or something else.

The grocery store offers and I'm part of the aging population we have a mobility impediment I would love to be able to walk there, carry my bags, and go home without taking the cars.

And I think the car issue and driving is one of the issues that council is, it's very high on council's um agenda and reduce that.

And we're doing something against it.

And just throwing out an offer to open this space up for multiple purposes.

I have to be careful with this because I I would love a medical clinic there if it's a GP.

But I understand that that can possibly not be specified, but we're opening the floodgates for creating facts, and then oh, we can't do this, let's move back.

We are stuck as a community for the next 10 years according to the bylaw, and the developer will be out in a few months.

They haven't done their homework, they haven't, they haven't said why they can't do it.

They said we can't do it.

Have they produced lists whom they contacted, at what rates and all these things?

When you can't rent out that certain things or can't sell certain things, the question is often at what price do you try to sell?

So that basically I would encourage the council to vote this bylaw down.

Stick with the fact I don't care whether this thing is empty or not.

That's that's the developer's risk.

We need to get what they set out to give us and not turn it around afterwards.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Anyone else want to address council just on the topic of the rezoning application?

Thank you.

My name is Paul Hurdy.

I live on near Lane.

I'm an almost retired physician.

And I just I don't envy council or the neighborhood for having to deal with this very complex issue.

I mean, it's it's very difficult.

But I would urge to be pragmatic.

And whether it's a physician or a grocery store, we're all looking for a reasonably seamless business case that we can enact.

And I I worry that if we're paralyzed by indecision, two years from now, we could be trying to allow other widening the possibilities of coming in.

So just I'm just suggesting to be pragmatic and consider a medical clinic.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Any other person in council chamber wish to address um council?

Yes, please.

Good evening, Mayor.

Good evening, council members.

My name is Claire White, and I live on Eltham Road.

I did sign a petition that came out, and it was um instigated by change.org.

And I wondered if the council had been uh advised of that petition and had been submitted to you.

And the petition was to um keep the grocery store in the um the space we're looking at because the developer was allowed to have the um the right to build two more levels on the property.

So that was just a question I was gonna ask.

Yeah, I'll just confirm that I don't remember seeing anything in the minute staff to do receive anything.

So uh we didn't get a submission.

I normally I'm not sure what change.org does, but uh for operating with council, they need to somebody needs to print it off at some point and submit it to us, or maybe even provide the link to I think our knowledge it hasn't been submitted.

Is it too late to do that?

I think so, yeah.

Uh whether this will be the end of the formal public hearing.

We can take the correspondence on at any time, but it may be post a decision for sure.

Okay, thank you.

Uh the other thing is that um I believe it's the same developer wants to use the uh to to build on Eltham Road, and we're talking about how we're in uh affected.

I'm just concerned about um with some of the parking issues that might uh take place of people actually parking on Eltham Road if they're not able to get to the round the back or down under the underground for the nine parking spots, and uh what impact that would have on people who reside on Eltham Road and those leading into Ashley Gate.

Do you I'm not sure if I are you're directing at that or expecting an answer that somebody might inadvertently park there that's associated with the business that is being proposed, whether it's a clinic or grocery store.

Yes, I mean if somebody is just going to because they for it for ease of parking, if it's a medical clinic and they need to uh you know get to their appointment, are they going to you know be if they end up parking somewhere where they shouldn't be parking?

Right.

And we I believe that the same developer is is possibly going to be the same the developer that's going to be going into the 20 townhouses on Eltham Road.

Mike also concern is the amount of traffic that's going to be then generated in that area.

Right.

So you know what what uh council would be proposing in that respect?

Because if we have people parking where they shouldn't be, and then we have these 20 extra uh homes there, we may not get into our own Ashley Gate and Lions Cove property.

I'm gonna limit kind of the discussion to just the rezoning of that space.

Okay, well, thank you.

I was just wanted to check that.

But again, um we were promised a grocery store, and that is what a lot of us are requesting.

We know that the medical uh clinic may be important, but if it's not guaranteed as to what type of medical clinic and it's not gonna be a walk-in one or a GP, a grocery store would certainly suffice a lot of people in this community.

So thank you very much.

Thank you.

Thank you for coming up.

Anyone else want to address council in the room?

Yes, please.

Oh, hi, I'm Melanie and I live on Vale Avenue.

I just want to make a comment how I feel about that corner.

I don't think we need another grocery store.

We've got three of them in every direction, one of each.

Quality foods and two thrifties.

And if you can't walk, they do deliver.

Um, I think having a coffee shop, we don't need one.

We've got the extreme outreach.

They do a lot for the community and would hate to take away the business that they got they offer.

And I think a medical clinic would be a better option in that spot and bypass the coffee shop.

Really don't need another one.

There's lots around.

Thank you.

Is there anybody else in the room that would like to address council on?

Uh I think we got two, so you could probably line up.

I think somebody is just ahead of you there, sir.

Thank you.

Go ahead, Claire.

Um so can I just clarify?

So there's these um um uses that are allowed.

Oh, Claire McDougall, View Royal Avenue.

Thank you.

Um so any one use would be allowed.

Like it's not, I was thinking it was a combination, but it's any one use would be allowed.

Is that accurate?

So uh that it's either grocery, I think that would take everything or medical clinic and cafe, but go ahead, Lee.

Um, yes, through the mayor.

So um it could be even like that space, like it could also be carved up into three to three units as well.

So you could potentially have a medical clinic, you could potentially have a small little grocery store and a cafe.

Um, the only requirement in the zone is that you have a there is a cafe and the minimum floor area is 74 square meters, but the rest of the space, it could be a combination of grocery store, medical clinic, or just a grocery store or just medical clinic.

That's specifying the zone.

If I understand correctly, there does need to be a cafe of 74 square meters.

And then whatever else.

The way it would impact me, um, if there was a GP, that'd be great.

Don't usually find my way to a coffee shop, but it's a thing.

It's uh probably will be an eternal disappointment for the whole neighborhood if there's no grocery store because it's just so clear that you know the there was an agreement, and um how does it impact?

Well, I guess the whole community learned something.

Anyways, thank you for your time.

Thank you, Claire.

I'm Greg Searan on Margaret Lane.

Um I'm a um family physician with a focused practice in chronic pain.

Uh I have the privilege of living in View Royal, but unfortunately don't work in View Royal.

Um, and one of the reasons for that is an overhead cost of working in this community.

Uh I I work in Lake Cowichan, where things are a little uh less expensive to uh operate a business.

Uh it's been a very interesting discussion this evening to hear perspectives from street level to community level of the issues before council.

I what's what I find very interesting is that um we're living in a in a time where we have a health care crisis, not a cafe crisis.

And there is a real need in our community in British Columbia, in Canada, for improved health care.

And I I don't get the sense that this is a um my concern of council to promote improved healthcare resources within our community.

I'm 73, so I I don't have long to practice, but I'm still active, and I would love to work in this community, but there aren't really facilities to do so.

There is a need for health care facilities, and the the council has a role to play in promoting that.

Adding the burden of operating a cafe within a clinic is does make it very challenging from a business perspective and may be a deal breaker.

That would be my I would not take on the uh purchase or rental of a facility if I'm hamstrung by having to operate a business that I have no passion or experience in.

But it wouldn't uh motivate me to open a cafe.

Yeah, to be clear, sir, the people that run the clinic um do not have to run the cafe.

That can be completely separate.

There are separate most most certainly.

However, they it does take up space within a uh the space that they are paying for uh that uh that could be better applied to um medical purposes.

So it it is a confounding factor in running a business and running a business is not easy in 2026.

Thank you for your attention.

Thank you, Doctor.

Anyone else want to address counsel on the topic of the rezoning?

Please just start with your name and your street name.

Hi, I'm Maya.

I live on View Royal Avenue.

I also work in healthcare.

I want, I live in this neighborhood for about 15 years, and I've chosen professionals that in this neighborhood specifically to access for my care.

My midwife Valerie lives in our in our neighborhood in View Royal on the waterside.

My massage therapist is Raidon Halpkin, and even my wedding commissioner was Rayon Helmkin.

So I would use a medical clinic, it was in the neighborhood to walk there.

I do that currently, choosing people on Google Maps who are in our neighborhood to support them to support me in walking and my health.

So I think a medical clinic would be a really wise choice to open up this discussion for a yes vote to keep options open.

We cannot force a grocer to sign up to rent the space.

We can't force anybody.

We have a willing tenant.

I think we should jump on it.

And I do work as an occupational therapist in my job, and a healthcare is struggling so hard.

So we need more opportunities.

We need to welcome more people and keep trying to fight against the snowball that is a healthcare system right now.

So um I hope everybody here can access more people in their neighborhoods like I have.

It's been vital to me.

And these three people that I mentioned made a world of difference in my life.

So I hope you could vote yes to keep the options open keep healthcare live.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Is there anybody else that wishes to address council?

Going once twice three times.

Carl have we got anybody online that has written in that wants to address council.

Mayor Tobias sir no chat comments this evening thank you Carl so that uh I think puts the end of the um uh comments from the public for part of the public hearing um I would now look for someone to move the receipt of correspondence including the two emails received for the late items moved by counselor matzons seconded by counselor lemon um all those in favor receipt any opposed seeing none opposed and before I adjourn does council have any questions for staff that they forget to ask or anything else because we can receive no new information after this point yeah um certainly applicant uh could you return to the podium, please.

Thank you.

We can address questions.

We can also respond to some of the points if the council wishes.

Yeah, thank you.

Um, as we heard uh this evening, one of the questions was um, how hard did you try to get a um a grocery store?

Uh your worship council, uh, thank you for the question.

Um, I'll I'll just reiterate what uh we spoke about when the subject uh first came up.

Uh this decision was not taken lightly by absolutely any stretch of the imagination.

We gave, because I know this is a concern that the public and the residents of the area have brought up numerous times today.

So I want to make sure the record is set completely clear for everybody.

We have not enjoyed having an empty space in this building.

This building that took the better part of my life to finish.

I would have had nothing more enjoyable in my life than to see a grocery store, a tenant life happening on this corner.

That was the vision when we first started.

It was a vision while we were building, and sadly, with the way things have gone, it didn't come to fruition in that iteration.

Tried to secure a suitable tenant.

And to just remind you, we could not bring in a big chain store.

That was something that was made very, very clear that this had to be a uh a boutique-style grocery store, red barn, one of the local type of artisan-type grocery stores, and that's what we set out to try to make sure happened.

It came up in some of the comments tonight that did you try hard enough?

Well, believe me when I tell you, covering the payments that we've had to cover for this building over the last four years of my life.

Yes, we absolutely tried the absolute best that we possibly could.

We overturned every single stone from here to Halifax to try to get that done.

We even had a tenant signed up that took two years of our lives.

We created incentives for her to try to finish and close, and it couldn't happen.

We've offered incentives to everybody that even showed the slightest interest.

You specifically brought up old farm market.

I spoke to Lauren on the phone, I don't know how many times begging him to consider this spot, and he said flat out, no, it will not work there.

So to answer your question, counselor, I have given absolutely everything I've could to do this.

It was not with an easy heart.

I know what the community was promised at the beginning.

We working with staff here extensively, tried to find a solution that would still enhance the community.

A market nourishes the body, a medical facility heals the body.

I feel both are absolutely important, and that is why we've come here with something that would still provide a community with a gathering place, a cafe, to address that part of the community concern.

So there is a place where people can get to know their neighbors, can walk up and have a coffee, relax, escape from the world that we're all dealing with at the moment, while still being able to provide an extremely important avenue for the citizens of View Royal.

68% of our residents don't have a doctor here in View Royal.

We have to start somewhere.

So I hope I've answered that question as clearly.

You have very much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Carl, I'll go back to you because I understand there's some uh comments that came in by chat.

Um, Mayor Tobias, uh, I'm just uh working out if I can see them.

Um, so if you come back to me in about a minute, that would be good.

What am I supposed to do?

Dance?

Uh Mayor Tobias, I have them now.

Okay, great.

Thanks, Ralph.

We have uh a message from Barbara DeLuca.

Hopefully, I'm pronouncing that right.

And they say, I'm still not quite sure about the parking available requirement.

If both a small grocery store and a 74 square meter cafe were to occupy the first floor space, how many parking spots are required for each and how many are available?

If there is sufficient parking available, how likely is variance is a variance allowing fewer spots to be approved, i.e., based on previous examples.

I think we might have had already Leanne or Jeff.

Do you want to take that one?

Staff has responded to that question earlier, but I'm happy to mention that the uh cafe, so if it's a medical clinic and cafe use, a combined use, uh, their parking requirement is 31 parking spaces.

There are 29 parking spaces on site, so there would be a deficiency of two parking stalls.

Um there's an uh in our zoning bylaw, the um the uh an applicant can decide to provide a cash and loo pavement to the town or apply for a variance, and so that's so it might not be a variance application, they might provide a cash and loo.

Thank you, Leanne.

Um Carl, go to your next one, please.

Um Mayor Tobias, our next one is also from Barbara De Luca.

Um is the medical clinic being proposed something along the lines of the View Royal Surgical Center located at Eagle Creek?

If so, it wouldn't improve people's access to family doctors, although perhaps wait times for specialists would be reduced.

What is the main advantage of View Royal having such a clinic?

If indeed the surgical center is what's the what the new clinic would be modeled on?

And that's the end of that comment.

Thank you.

And I think the answer was once we zone it as a clinic, it could be used for any type of health clinic and not specifically for primary care or specialized treatment.

Leanne, do you want to address that as well?

Through the mayor, the um surgical day center up at Eagle Creek is permitted because hospital is a permitted use in that zone, which is not a permitted use in this in this zone, it's just medical clinic.

Thank you for that, Leanne.

Next one, Carol.

Mayor Tobias, our next one.

Um by Barbara DeLuca, um, seeing an amendment to the previous comment.

I realize the zoning doesn't dictate what type of clinic would inhabit the space, but if the couple who are considering the space for medical purposes were to go ahead, what is the clinic they envision?

Oh, I think uh there is an interested party uh for I think it was uh pre and post uh head trauma plus some primary care.

Did I get that right?

Yeah.

Next one, Carl.

Um, also from Barbara DeLuca, my final comment/slash question.

People need a sense of community in the area in which they live.

This is critical to the future of our cities.

Living actively in community with those who don't necessarily choose to interact with the lead with leads to people caring for and about each other, even if we don't always realize this.

A sense of community is essential for bringing us together to effectively solve the problems and issues with which we deal with in our urban lives, even in the issues in our medical system.

A small-scale grocery store and a cafe would increase interaction between residents and be a great step towards achieving a deeply meaningful community.

And that's the end of that one.

Thank you.

Carl, is there any more?

Um Mayor Tobias, we have a few more.

This one uh is listed anonymous user, but I think it may be the same uh as the previous points.

Uh the director of development has just told us that the ground floor space could be carved into three spaces and a grocery, a cafe and a medical clinic.

Or a cafe and a medical clinic could all be run at the same time.

The bay bylaw needs to specify that this cannot happen because there is no way there's enough parking for all three uses at the same time.

A medical clinic would be a reasonable use, a grocery would be better.

I don't think any new zoning should be considered until the town asks the owner to pay a penalty for not fulfilling the original agreement.

And that's the end of that one.

And we have two more.

Yeah, go ahead, Carl.

Oh, um, one is just a comment uh to us about the chat system.

Um the final one is by Kyle Porter.

Is is the town still looking for a clinic space to own or lease?

Has the discussion come up about the town working with the developer here to satisfy the clinic space the counselors have been trying to find for the town?

And that's the end of that one, and I must correct there's one more.

Okay, go ahead, Cro.

Mayor Tobias, the final comment is from Tyler Withrow on Palliser.

And they're saying I want to be clear about a few concerns for the from the community.

First, the space is not being proposed as a controversial, sorry, as a conventional medical facility.

It is not a walk-in clinic or a family doctor's office.

It is purposely built for alternate or complementary medicine, which is fundamentally different from primary medical care.

Treating those as equivalent misrepresents what is actually being offered.

Second, I'm concerned about transparency in this process.

The developer has hired a sitting counselor from another municipality to advocate on their behalf.

Even if technically permitted, this creates at minimum a perceived conflict of interest and raises questions about influence and fairness in a public decision-making process.

Third, if affordability is being cited as a benefit of this proposal, then reduced rent must be paired with landlord-funded tenant improvements.

This is a standard practice in comparable developments and should be an expectation here, not an exception.

Most importantly, the community has been very clear about what it actually needs at this location: a grocery store.

A grocery store is a daily use service that supports families, seniors, affordability, walkability, and food security.

This proposal does not meet that need.

Finally, there's an active community petition with 277 signators opposing this proposal.

That level of engagement reflects significant local concern and should carry real weight in council's consideration.

There's a clear disconnect between what residents are about what residents are concerned for and should carry real weight in the council's consideration.

Um my mistake, I read a line wrong.

There's a clear disconnect between what residents are asking for and what is being proposed here.

And I'm asking council to seriously reflect on that before moving forward.

And that's all of our comments.

Thank you, Carl.

Thank you.

Question to who?

To the opponents.

No, we're we're I gave opportunity for that.

I gave topic opportunity.

We're this is gonna be an all-night process as it is.

Come on.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Uh moved by councillor Brown, seconded by Councillor Rogers.

All those in favor.

Any opposed?

Seeing none opposed.

So that concludes the portion for the public hearing.