Committee of the Whole

I'd like to begin the meeting by acknowledging our friends and neighbors, the Esquimalt and Songhees Nation.

This meeting is being held under the auspices of Ministerial Order M192 due to the COVID-19 pandemic.

This afternoon and this evening, the public will have the opportunity to speak on matters that are on the agenda under public participation.

And the number is on your screen, 778-402-9227, and then enter conference ID 100-715-935.

And both this afternoon and this evening, there are public participation portions of the agenda.

The one this afternoon will come up very fast.

So if there's anything you'd like to speak to us about now, would be the time to come in.

I know some people may be wondering what happened to the Chilco Park off-leash dog issue, because that was tabled to this meeting, but it wasn't put on the meeting.

And so we decided that rather than putting it on at the last minute, that we would carry that over to October.

So the Chilco Park off leash issue will be on the October committee of the whole meeting.

So when you call in at the appropriate time in the agenda, I will then announce the last four digits of your phone number.

I'll ask you to mute the live webcast to avoid feedback.

Ask you to not use speakerphone to ensure sound quality, and ask that you unmute yourself by pressing star six.

And you may then give us the benefit of your views.

And if you could begin by giving us your name and address, please.

This meeting will be recorded by participating in this webcast.

You are consenting to being recorded, and the recording will be available on the town's website for future access.

And with that, Councilor Levin, we just we did add under Protective Services just an informal discussion about the commissioning of our totem poll.

Oh, all right.

While we have the chief here.

Okay.

So is there anything else for the agenda?

Everybody's good.

Can I get a motion to approve?

Similar.

Thank you.

Moved by Councillor Rogers, seconded by Councilor Levin.

All in favor, opposed, that's carried.

And then we have minutes from July 13th.

Motion to approve.

Move adoption.

Yeah, move by Councillor Rogers, seconded by Councillor Kowalewich.

Is there any comments, corrections?

No, no good.

There's no petitions and delegations.

All in favor.

Opposed.

That's carried.

So we are now at public participation period.

So if there's any items on the agenda for this afternoon, really, or this evening, um, this is the opportunity for the public to speak to them.

Do we have any callers on the line staff?

Uh, your worship, we have no callers on the line at this time.

Okay.

I think we will carry on then.

Thank you.

And I will turn the chair over to Councillor Lemon for Protective Services.

Thank you very much, your worship.

Um, I have no report and nor do I have business arising, so I'm going to turn the mic over to superintendent Preston.

And you have you've brought um a colleague.

So Mike's been uh how long have you been here, Mike?

Uh since December.

Since December.

Um, so he's in charge of our traffic services.

Came from the uh the Golden Rebel Stoke area there.

So he's certainly familiar with crashes.

Uh I bet.

Yeah, so he's uh been an absolute great asset uh to the detachment here.

I think he has the right approach to uh what we're looking for in terms of traffic services uh in the West Shore, which is uh real common sense approach, uh which is excellent.

So uh he'll talk a little bit about traffic in a sec here, real quick.

I know there were some uh questions a number of weeks or months ago about uh traffic noise, um, and we never got to that.

So I thought I'd uh bring Mike to discuss that and just a couple other traffic notations.

Uh but I'll start off with just a few uh boring statistics uh they normally do.

So uh overall since January 1st uh to August 31st, we've seen a 16% increase in View Royal uh in terms of file loads.

So that's uh 329 more files in that time frame compared to last year.

Um the violent crime, unfortunately we see an 11% increase uh from January to August as well.

That means uh there was 97 uh occurrences uh during that time.

Most of those are assaults uttering threats or assault with a weapon.

Um, the most common obviously being the assault at 41%, 15% uh uttering threats, and 14% uh assault with a weapon were the top three violent fences that we dealt with in your area here um in terms of property crime we saw a 10% increase in property crime as well uh which equates to 23 files over that uh that eight month period um theft from autos was the most significant one at 24 percent we had mischief uh under 5000 17 and uh shoplifting was 11 of those uh those were the top three in terms of property related crimes uh the hospital uh we had 150 we've been to the hospital 152 times uh this year.

Um, which i yeah it's it's never ending.

I uh I pity the healthcare workers right now.

Um we're keeping a close eye, obviously, on some of the uh activities that some of the other jurisdiction of municipalities are dealing with.

And I've made it very clear that uh we'll have a zero tolerance uh at that hospital as best we can in terms of enforcement.

If uh somebody's trying to block uh block a hospital or impede the uh our hospital staff from doing anything, um we're we won't be tolerating that uh here in the West Shore.

So uh casino.

It was uh we had a nice reprieve there for a while uh when it was closed.

So I'm sure that wasn't great for the for the bottom line, but uh since it's been open again here, we've uh we had 43 um calls for service from January to uh to August, minimal files for the first five months, obviously, because it was closed, and then the last uh the last couple months here, it's it's increased here.

Todd is uh second.

Can I just so with the casino?

Is it things that are happening within the casino, or is it the homeless encampment behind us?

It's it's both for sure.

So it's I mean the majority of the stuff.

Um, you know, you can see the the spike obviously when the casino is open, we get calls the drunks or the whatever the drug use or um mischief inside the casino.

But yeah, there's oftentimes people rummaging around in the back or or the homeless people in the back, or mischief to the casino, or a suspicious person, something like that.

Those are so they're all related calls to that address.

Um, what else we got here?

Uh just the uh the mental health files.

Uh they just you know they continue.

Uh there's a nine percent increase uh from last year um over the same same time frame.

So in in uh View Royal, we dealt with uh 89 mental health files this year, um which is you know obviously just a fraction of what we're dealing with on the West Shore.

And you can see it, especially downtown right now in Victoria and uh some of the places in Saanich, and obviously the incident that uh that occurred on the border with Victoria and Saanich, no doubt had some mental health component, I'm sure, to it uh recently a couple days ago.

So it's uh yeah, until we get some better resourcing, we just know that it's going to continue to pile on uh the police because we're the last the last person standing.

Um, you know, I've seen the letters from from uh your your staff and from other uh municipalities asking for more resources and help in terms of dealing with mental health and a better strategy um we're we're not we're not realizing that we're not seeing any uh the results uh for the most part as you can see we got it's an increase uh so the check will means every day the mental health calls every day and that burden is being put on to the the police which ultimately you guys have to pay for instead of a provincial responsibility in terms of health care um so it's just one more added burden um but it makes it it's I'm not gonna lie it's difficult for the uh for the members and obviously the hospital staff we bring them there and it's a revolving door.

We just don't have uh the treatment facilities.

The uh ever since they shut down the the institutions here in this province.

Um there's limited options uh available to us.

Are those are the 89 included in the 152 visits to the hospital?

Uh I don't I'm not sure.

I I would suspect that certainly some of those are uh uh definitely attributable to that number.

Okay.

So maybe I'll let Mike uh just you know provide a little bit of stats and then I can answer some more questions.

Or Duran, do you want to go ahead?

Oh I can oh sorry, Ron, I didn't see you.

Go ahead.

In terms of the violent crimes and the property crimes, is it throughout you all in the particular area of concern?

No, I don't I haven't noticed one one particular area here, but what I can do is uh I'll make a note, and maybe next uh next time I come here I'll I'll bring the the the GPS mapping.

I think I've done that for you before, uh, and it'll show you kind of the dotted uh the dots of where the majority of the calls for service within your jurisdiction are.

So we'll just get the crime analyst to pull that off for you.

The other question, I guess the news reported very justified but significant increase to RCP sellers coming up in the future.

And I just want to know when uh that would still make its way down to municipality.

Um yeah, it's I think the Treasury Board, like do you know how long it is?

Six, nine months or whatever they have to actually they have they there's some specific guidelines that they have to actually implement the the pay raise, and so it is retroactive.

Um, not obviously all of it, but um it is retroactive, you know, either two and a half, three percent or plus cost of living uh over the last four or five years.

Because I think it's been close to five years without a pay raise.

And so the pay raise actually takes us pretty much to the top scale, um, makes us very competitive again for for attracting uh new members and keeping uh in retention.

We were we literally went from one of the worst paid police forces in the country back up to where you know we were typically in that top three, top five uh range across the country for years and years and years, and over the last decade it's really slipped, and that's really affected our ability to uh attract good candidates and for the retention.

And so we're really hoping that this uh this helps.

Obviously, it's a it's a burden to the the communities.

I know that I'm hoping that uh Kim's been saving uh his his nickels and orders over there for the last few years, uh although he looks like he's got some sun so I'm uh he might have been on a holiday on a on that money but um anyways yeah I don't know exactly when it's uh when it's gonna be it'll be within the next six to nine months I'm sure they'll straighten it out.

I guess staff would also on the finance committee maybe tell us what that means to us.

Uh thank you superintendent did you notice any particular rise in calls during the heat wave and if so is there anything that we should know about for our community in particular.

No I don't have that staff but I would be surprised if there wasn't uh an increase in in calls there.

Just uh people getting out and about and uh you know everything from there's so much more traffic and uh yeah um obviously the lakes and uh people drinking and yeah so I I would be shocked if there wasn't a small small increase uh I can get that number for you though for sure.

Yeah, no rush.

Okay.

Yeah.

Anyone else?

Costa Rogers?

Yeah.

Hi, thank thanks very much.

Um I just wanted to say that uh you know the concerns that you all has about um uh policing uh the hospital um getting a a quick turnaround uh on on matters before the court, particularly dangerous offenders, is not shared or is shared uh with other municipalities throughout um uh BC.

Um I'm I'm looking at the UBC I'm gonna I listed resolutions from all over the province.

And this is a repeated issue calling on the provincial government to take a greater ownership, greater money, greater policing, greater dealing with the issues that we got at hand.

There's only so much we can do.

Yeah, I appreciate it.

Yeah, I appreciate you.

So having uh the politicians push this push this is really one of the only options we have.

Mike, do you want to talk about some traffic for a little bit here?

Sure.

Um Welcome.

I guess the big news uh was the stop sign, the four-way stop sign that went on six mile road there that caused uh but I'd like to compliment John Rosenberg and your your road roadworks crew there.

The signage that you guys put up when when the new sign uh new stop signs went in, the warning signs, uh, even had flashing lights for a while there.

That was above above average or above normal.

Um, although it's still we had lots of people that have been driving that way for so long and are just in such a habit.

And I think it really helped.

They just kept driving right through that stop sign.

So we did quite a bit of enhanced enforcement through that uh through that period and we um we've slowed down on that a little bit but we're still we're still doing more more enforcement work there at that particular intersection than other places.

Um and we're still getting some people that are um rolling through or the occasion occasional person blows through it and um we've been uh issuing written warnings to people that kind of make an attempt but don't quite get her done and people that just drive right through they definitely get a ticket.

So um the other kind of in the view royal area um traffic issue that I've noticed is speeds on the transit or the island highway um you know late at night and in the morning because it's such a big big road we've uh one in particular I had 115 in the 50 zone at night and um just last week Sean had somebody 95 I think in the 50 in like 536 in the morning so it's kind of hard to deal with that I mean I don't know what you do engineering wise, because we need those four lanes uh in the busy parts of the day.

Anyway that that's something we're keeping an eye on.

And when we do our late patrols and our early morning patrols, we've been working on that, working on that area.

Sorry it was that on the on the number one or on the sorry on the island highway, sort of down near um the furniture regularly?

Okay, right, okay, good, right?

Ashley's furniture store and the six-mile bridge, that kind of area there.

Thank you.

Yeah.

And then I understand you have uh you've had some questions or concerns about about noise.

Yes.

If you don't mind, I'll give you a little bit of history there.

Um going back to about 2010, um, several police forces across Canada really tried to step up the noise enforcement.

Um, Edmonton City Police really took a uh a lead in that, but there were some police forces in Ontario and also uh Nova Scotia that were trying to get a handle handle on this.

And um they all had trouble.

Uh Edmonton City Police seemed to be the only one that really stuck with it.

And in 2010, they spent $192,000, almost $200,000 on video and audio equipment.

And uh the goal is to, or their goal was to um do noise enforcement.

Um you know, just pick a vehicle that said that vehicle sounds loud, bring it in, do a test, and then be able to bring the results of that test to court and get a conviction.

Unfortunately, out of in in 2010, which maybe is COVID partly affected, but they only were able to use that equipment for one conviction.

So that's not a business case we want to follow.

So we've been doing it.

Oh I'll just add also in the BC Motor Vehicle Act regulations, there's rules about how many decibels a vehicle can make, and they have different levels for different vehicles.

But it actually specifically says right in the motor in the regulations that that's when tested in a testing facility by an inspector.

So if we test at the roadside, that's not going to be admissible in court.

So us going out and buying a bunch of decibel meters and going and trying to make readings, it's it's it's not uh it's not a good thing for us to do.

Um so it relies back on the officer to make a determination on we found a loud vehicle, is it loud, how loud is it?

And the officer has to be able to articulate that in court, and we can do that.

We could lay a charge for excessive noise, and then we go to court and we relay the you know the details of it for each charge that ends up being kind of time consuming, but it's definitely doable.

But in most of these cases where the vehicle is loud, it also doesn't, it's loud because it has a modified muffler or no muffler, straight pipes or something like that.

And in that case, we can write a notice and order and we can order that these vehicles go through a mechanical inspection by a VC approved facility.

So the way we've been dealing with it is we find a loud vehicle, and depending on the officer's discretion of how loud it is, how obvious that any changes to the vehicle are, we do everything from a written warning to getting ordering a mechanical inspection and then possibly laying a charge if the circuit, like if the person, you know, pulled away from the stop sign and gave it full throttle and made this really loud noise, then we can do that.

If if I was working and say five motorcycles came up and I heard a loud noise, I would have a difficult time proving in court which of the five motorcycles were loud.

But if I stop them and I inspect I look at them and you know they all have straight pipes on them, then it's you know fairly easy for me to write um notice and orders.

And that means that gives them 30 days to have the vehicle repaired and inspected.

So the interesting concern came from the residents of one building.

Um and I think it's repeated.

It will, you know, it's w when people are in full flight in spring, it's a sunny day, and and a whole stream of Harleys go by, yeah, and and uh and they're noisy.

So I don't know how you articulate and do you know uh distinguish between one Harley and and the guy behind.

Um but you all so all know the sound of a Harley.

So I don't, you know, I I I'm sure I I can't imagine there's anything to do about that.

Um it's really tough.

Yeah, it's a it's yeah it is a view royal problem, but it's a North America problem.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, and so actually you you need to be there and and for whatever reason, for that reason or another reason.

Um, um and holy cow, that's a crazy loud right peace disturbing noise.

We'll deal with it.

Yes.

Absolutely.

Yeah, so yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I was just wondering what the cost is.

Thank you.

I had a question on that.

That seems like forcing someone to get their bike or car tested and then paying is probably enough encouragement for them not to make the noise again or you know to down.

Um I'm not sure what the cost is exactly.

I think it's around $200, but I'm I'm not sure on that.

Yeah.

I have and yeah, or once they get the certificate, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And if if it if they don't get it done um within the 30 days, their insurance becomes null and void.

And if they're caught driving it, it says $600, well, $598 fine for disobeying an order.

Okay.

How much?

$598.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Counselor Rogers?

Yeah.

Uh thanks again.

On the motorcycle motorcycle thing again.

Um it's it's actually a resolution to UBCM for to get seek assistance with from the province.

Um the city of Victoria had a campaign.

Uh do you know about that campaign?

And I I do, and I I talked to the officer that was in charge of that, and he they bought a decimal meter and they it's they used it as a kind of a public awareness campaign.

Um and um I I wish them luck with it, but you know, they there's the cost of purchasing the equipment, the cost of the time of members operating it.

But really these people with a lot so when they do that, they're educating people that their bikes are too loud or their car is too loud or their diesel truck is too loud or whatever.

But these people are in my opinion, are aware that their vehicles are too loud.

In most cases, they've spent thousands of dollars to make them that loud.

So if I have a decibel near that says your vehicle's too loud.

If anything, they're just satisfied.

They're happy.

Thank you.

My money's well spent.

Yeah.

Uh just a comment you made about uh traffic speeds on the island highway.

Back in the 50s and 60s, that stretch was called the Devil's Highway.

So nothing new.

Sadly, it's not new.

Okay.

Um, and and thirdly, thank you for your work on Choco to uh uh help us with the uh rolling stocks.

It's interesting.

Last night at uh eight o'clock I was there observing, and uh the the one person that I decided to ask questions, she was a pedestrian crossing, and she says, please bring back the pedestrian control.

You know, I almost got hit.

If it weren't for other cars honking and beeping to tell the driver this to that I was there, okay, I would have been hit.

So it's it's the the issue of you're not only the speeding cars and rolling shops, it's is pedestrian safety.

Okay, so I I I don't know the answer to this.

The a question for your uh john in engineering it would be can we have a four-way stop that also has pedestrian flashing activated flashing lights right uh i don't know if that's that's allowed or not let's find out yeah i think right and is the wires still there to to connect it back up yeah otherwise is there are real concerns in the community on the end yeah yeah anyone else no good thanks you're done okay well thank you very very much for coming to yeah, thank you.

Okay, thanks.

Any other questions for uh from the detachment or any complaints or anything we need to approve on?

Or complaints.

Thank you for coming.

I do have one quick question.

Is it a complaint?

Not a complaint.

Is it possible to get like cameras that for some way of for that intersection determining who's you know running the red or running the stop sign and just ticketing them?

Through uh red light cameras, you mean?

Yeah.

Well that's a provincial, yeah.

That's a provincial thing.

That's uh provincial highways thing.

We we don't do that in municipalities.

I think uh I think that was an election platform once.

Uh I'm not sure.

I think that uh yeah, that that might have anything to do with us.

I think ICBC will put them at a high risk intersection still, and ICBC funds them and finances them, but I think that's the only ones that and they're pretty rare.

Yeah, I think it's only the real high risk, like you say, Mr.

There's one election on this item, and you know.

See you next month.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

He's up next.

I always have lots to say.

Go ahead.

I'm just gonna wait till my learned colleague returns before I take my shots at him, but I'll I'll hold off on those this afternoon.

Good afternoon, Mayor, members of council.

The bi-monthly public safety report for July and August.

I'll go through the report, and I have just a couple other things I'd like to uh to add to the discussion points before I answer any questions.

Um just as we uh come out of COVID, obviously um training will start to pick up.

It was a little slower in the summer because of holidays and uh and time off.

Uh we've managed to keep our emergency program busy.

Our Troy has, and we've welcomed back our emergency radio technicians back into the building.

Um, one thing of note in the emergency program, there was a question asked uh regarding the the heat wave.

Um fire responded to 10 related heat wave calls, and there were significant numbers of deaths attributed to those calls.

Um as a result, uh Troy and his group got together and they did actually open up a cooling center at the Callwood Church on August 13th when that second heat wave hit.

So we were proactive in that sense.

I I I think it's fair to say that uh a lot of people were caught a bit flat footed with the uh with that heat wave and the unexpected heat.

I mean, it was upwards of high 40s, 50 degrees, and I don't think anyone could have predicted that.

And I think residents and citizens and and professionals alike all have to bear some of the responsibility of some of the outcomes of that.

So we did learn some lessons from that, and uh and Troy did implement those with other uh members in the West Shore emergency group.

So that was that was quite successful.

Um, and I just want to echo uh the superintendent's uh earlier comments just on our support for healthcare workers.

I'm sure everyone is as disappointed as I am with the behaviors and the protests that are hospitals and healthcare centers and the threatening behavior towards the people have actually kept this province alive for the last 18 to 24 months.

So, my uh my utmost respect to our healthcare workers for the work they've done over the past uh year and a half with COVID.

Uh, it's nice to see uh a slight increase in our building department revenue numbers.

I'm hopeful over the next couple of weeks uh we have some more permits of high value come in just to bump those revenues up.

There are several projects in the stream that we're waiting to break ground on.

There are several that are underway now.

As you see, the fencing's gone up on uh 298 Island Highway, the old uh Amricos building.

We're progressing well on 244, uh 242 Island Highway, and occupancy was granted to the 1450 Glentana building.

Uh I did a drive-by of the um West Park Lane development, and that's progressing as well.

They're starting to flatten and clear out land up top for the uh the next phase above the townhouses.

So that's that's encouraging.

Uh the bylaw division.

Um, I'd like to introduce to the committee and mayor and council our new bylaw officer, uh Jim Henley.

Jim uh joins us after uh a successful and exemplary career with the City of Victoria Police, and he replaced uh our bylaw officer Mark Grew, who took over Don Brown's job at CRD.

That's where uh where Mark went.

Um we've already realized some some good success with uh Jim.

He hit the ground running on day one, picking up the files where Mark had left off.

And um, as you know with bylaw, the files never stop coming.

The phone always keeps ringing.

So really pleased so far.

If we look at the bylaw numbers, um we're at uh for the end of August, we're at about 611 files, which is higher at this point than we were last year.

So I anticipate that our numbers, of course, are probably going to exceed last year's when it comes to actual files.

And as discussed before, I'd attribute that a little bit to um possibly the fact that a lot of people are working from home and they're seeing things now when they're at home that they would never normally see 8 30 to 4 30 Monday to Friday.

So that I think has generated a bit of the uptick.

The other uptick, of course, and echoing the the comments of the committee regarding um calls to the casino and that area, a lot of our bylaw calls for homeless were attributed to that area behind the casino.

Uh there was a large encampment in there.

That encampment has since been broken down and has been vacated, and I believe the area has been cleaned out of all the debris.

So Bylaw is keeping an eye on that, and uh, we have worked with our West Shore partners in bylaw and police to monitor that area.

Firewise and statistically, we are very much on course for our historical numbers.

We'll probably exceed our 2017 2018 numbers.

Officially, we started our overnight stipend program July 4th, and that was a carry on of the COVID funded staffing program where we had four people in the building at night.

So that's now in the budget for the rest of the year.

And as we move into the fourth wave, it's going to be critical that we maintain that staffing and limit our influx of people into the building.

Uh is transitioning now over to Surrey.

And what that means for us is probably a significant improvement in our response times, both into Lankford and Lankford having responded to us because Callwood Langford and View Royal are now on the on the same dispatch platform.

Our mobile CADs will all be interlinked, so we'll be able to answer and respond to each other's calls simultaneously without any delay of having to go through different dispatch centers.

So we're very excited that they've uh signed on with Surrey, and that transition should happen at the end of December.

So there'll be significant work between the three departments as we as we move through that uh that transition.

And that is all I have.

Um I'm more than happy to answer any questions, as is our new bylaw officer, if you have any for Jim.

I'm just gonna say to Jim, I you could stay sitting.

Very happy to see you.

You're very welcome.

Just before bylaw, if if anything is of you know, top of mind interest to people within a municipality, it's bylaw.

And in fact, just before leaving my house tonight, there was a knock at the door, and somebody wanted to, you know, what do we do?

What do I do about and I won't lay it all on you here, but it was bylaw issue.

And and uh t-shirt to say called Jim.

Yep, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I see I didn't know your name then, but now I do.

Anyway, thanks very much.

Okay, who was up first?

I think you were because I was looking this way.

My questions are probably easier than Ron's.

Well, first of all, um Jim, welcome.

I've known you for a long time.

I had no idea that you uh you had been hired, but that is wonderful.

That's an amazing uh pickup by the Sound of View Royal.

So um we're very lucky to have you.

So uh welcome.

Uh you come with a lot of experience.

Uh my next question is to uh Chief Hearst.

Obviously, we've uh we have some special circumstances surrounding the leadership team right now at the town of V Royal Fire Department.

I'm just wondering how you guys are managing staffing wise for yourself and Heath and Troy, and you know, are you getting enough uh time off and support?

Thank you for that.

Um, we are finally starting to uh burn off holidays.

Um so right now, uh Troy and Heath have taken up uh enhanced roles and and more responsibilities.

Um I'm hoping to take some holidays near the end of the year.

I took some holidays this summer uh for deployments for wildfire.

And uh that was a busy season this year, as you know, if you watch the news, but uh yeah, uh Heath and Troy have really stepped up to pick up uh in areas that were were lacking and they're really pleased with their performance.

Uh our two new employees as well uh are doing very well.

Um they've hit the ground running.

It's it's a bit of a different dynamic.

They don't get an opportunity to be a probationary member.

They're they're assigned tasks right away and they're they're doing work right, you know, day one.

So I appreciate you asking that.

So um we're working through it and we're we're looking forward to resolve.

Absolutely.

And then last, it's not a question, uh, but you touched on it.

I was just going to thank you for representing the town of Uroyal once again.

Uh to unfortunately, more wildfires in the province of British Columbia this summer.

Uh always uh proud to see you on various newscasts and um, you know, fly flying our flag and always in a leadership position.

So thanks for for going to those areas.

I I'm sure it can't be easy, and uh it seems like it's old hat for you, but um but thank you.

You're welcome.

Uh yeah, um uh firefighter Petrie uh was deployed as well, and we had a uh structural protection crew that deployed deployed.

Um it's getting more and more difficult to staff these positions provincially.

And uh we had uh one of our members deploy with uh Cow Bay Fire Department and another member deployed with Sydney.

So we're finding a lot of departments are actually picking one or two people from each department to create teams as opposed to trying to pick four or six people from one department.

So it is getting more difficult and as the the fire numbers increase obviously it's just going to be a challenge every summer I think and it's it's only going to get worse thank you hi uh thank you and so again welcome jim but i i missed your last name um asking us to get it to h-n l-y h-n-l-y I'd like to like the regatta from the eagles like the regatta like the regatta the henley regatta yes yes well thank you uh the other question i had is uh in terms of who's handling our building inspection, are we still contracting or what are we doing?

Yes, we are.

We're still under contract with Gary.

So with and that will transition in October okay uh the other one, a couple other questions the the homeless, like how many homeless do we currently have in Pew Rawl, or do we have an idea?

The our the people we know of our I would call them our regular homeless.

There's probably about, I would say eight to ten that we know and we interact with on a on if not a daily, a weekly basis.

We we have contact with uh with these people.

We know them by name.

Um we offer them assistance and we we're working with them to help make their lives a little bit better.

Uh the transient population varies.

Um, you know, we get a case like behind the casino, where we had six or eight people living behind the casino.

Uh that was a transient group that came in, some of them uh living under the bridge at six mile uh in other areas uh mill hill theaters like park of course which is narrows but there there is a transient group but we just don't know what the numbers are but they they come and go they'll set up one night and then they'll be gone the next day whether it's portage or Trans Canada and Helmican but our our our actual homeless residents as I would call them there's probably anywhere from eight to ten that we know of that we uh that we work with and interact with okay um another question and and and just just to add on that those aren't those aren't the people that are giving us the problems.

They, you know, they uh they're respectful and and we respect their positions, and we we actually we're we're living quite harmoniously right now, so everything's going well.

Okay.

Um medical aid calls.

Uh are we doing all of like we we cut back to only the higher level ones.

Are we doing them all now?

No, we yeah, we cut back to we cut back to the uh what they would call purple or critical calls uh during COVID.

That was for the months of I want to say March, four months.

It was March, April, May, and June of 2020.

And and then I think what happened is uh it became a capacity issue with BC ambulance, and they turned the system back on and brought in fire for red and orange calls and and lower acuity calls.

Now we do go to lower acuity calls when BC ambulance is delayed and they can't get an ambulance in a timely fashion.

Um if I was to, I'd have to actually extrapolate the numbers and see what the difference of acute you know critical care calls, the purples versus the reds and the oranges.

The oranges are a low acuity.

We don't do many of those.

Um, but I could I could find those numbers for you.

But we're we're back at where we were pre-COVID, yes.

Okay.

And my last question is did you get a chance to look at the uh the fire truck, the picture that I sent to you?

That was a beauty.

That would uh that would be a nice that'd be a nice that would probably save us about a million and ninety thousand.

So we have good work on finding that one.

Okay.

Online shopping.

Yeah, it's a uh thanks again, uh Paul.

Nice to meet you.

Welcome aboard.

Um so um you you mentioned the emergency radio communication teams.

They haven't had any training to keep up.

At least that's what we're reading with Troy.

I know they're having their the maintenance and and other activities, but um how do we uh ensure that that training continues um as this pandemic continues?

That's a good question.

The so the training it it did continue, but not in a in a formal sense where they would go on a seminar or a course.

They obviously, as we work from home, they would communicate via radio from home.

So they haven't had the ability to come into the public safety building as a group to to work as a group.

Uh that restriction has now been lifted um on that team because we've confirmed a double vaccination and they're following the COVID rules and uh we have a level of comfort with our our radio and ESS people now inside the building as they do coming into the building because our of course our our department is vaccinated as well.

Okay thank you.

The um in in the statistics that you give um and the medical calls and so forth on what line of all those um you know do we count your attendance to uh fentanyl drug overdoses there isn't there isn't actually a category broken out in these stats.

These are these are very high level statistics.

So if you look at you know the months of August, there's a number there of medical calls.

I can I can get you those numbers.

If if that's something you'd like to see, I can I can supply you the numbers of of what type of calls we're responding to, whether they're a cardiac arrest and overdose.

I will say that our our there is still a significant uh overdose and fentanyl issue in the town of Uroil that is resulting in deaths.

Um it might not be the numbers of downtown, but per capita in population the numbers are still relevant.

And they do have our attention in the and it is still is still happening in V-Royal on a regular basis.

Yeah, sad to hear.

Yeah.

Uh, how is the summer for Atheist Lake and and your activity there?

Thank you, Counselor.

I was I was actually going to I was actually going to send a uh a briefing note to uh members of council and I don't think I'm gonna jinx myself at this point.

I'm pleased to say that the entire summer of Thetis Lake we didn't have one call for service to Thetis Lake Park.

Great.

So that's not to say there wasn't a half a million people in the park uh but what I would I'd be remiss if I didn't acknowledge the fact that the CRD staffed the park with their park rangers and by law and they they had a physical presence in the park and I'd like to thank the mayor for his his his encouragement to the CRD on that.

It it created uh a situation for us that lifted a huge burden for response.

Um so when I say there were no calls to Thetis Lake, there were literally no calls to Thetis Lake.

We had one one call uh where someone twisted their ankle, an elderly female on the beach.

And that was wrapped up in five minutes.

No alcohol-related calls.

There were no uh rescue calls and no fires in Thetis Lake.

And and it it's obviously a testament to CRD's commitment with putting people in the park.

I think that made a huge difference.

Everyone I talked to said every time they went in the park, they saw rangers, they saw bylaw, they saw people walking around.

So I think um I think this would see the death of any uh cost recovery bylaw, as long as we can, you know, see an annual commitment or a recommitment by CRD to staff the park appropriately and and and manage the issues.

So I'm really pleased with the outcome this summer thanks for asking good question perhaps a uh a letter recognition for that effort would be uh worthwhile absolutely for the record I'll s I'll submit a letter to you.

And what it says to me is that it enabled you and and um folks as is um noted earlier that you would then able to deploy your um forces to battle the raging fires in in the interior in the rest of BC and um um I don't know how many departments and how many fire chiefs were were there but I I would um hope that you know, with that expertise, um there's a another layer of of um constructive suggestions that uh your expertise and your professionalism can lend to the province to try and um uh give uh another heads up, another tactic, whatever that we may um uh be able to employ next summer for the next one.

You know, it distresses me to hear that um you have badly burned and injured horses that have to be shot in fields uh because they've you know the fire has ravaged not only buildings but livestock.

It's it's disgusting.

And I'm very sorry to hear that.

I think there'll be a lot of lessons learned and every year they do a debrief.

And uh I think I think there'll be some there'll be some uh conversations around response and deployment and equipment and use.

So I I'm looking forward to those debriefs.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Okay, if If I dunjon, uh you had a follow-up question and then Do I get to go last?

Even before second-time speakers?

That's a that's that's a slippery slope there, Counter.

I would have thought the mayor would have got to speak first.

Very quick.

Welcome, Jim.

When you first stood up, I thought you had a sign arm, which I thought would greatly improve our bylaw enforcement, but it's not.

And there are two files, which obviously I'm not gonna discuss here, but that it would be good to touch base with you on in the next day or two because I have residents that are asking me a lot of questions about them.

So I I would like to be able to, anyhow.

So that's all.

Welcome to View Royal and thank you, Paul.

Yes, all I have to do.

Yep.

Very concise.

Those files are with the CAO okay still blame him.

No they're with him and uh more than happy to yeah enlighten you on uh on the intricacies of those two files we're gonna get that in the follow-up from counselor colour yeah and I was gonna ask about this I forgot but clearly you're aware of the paramedic shortage in British Columbia and there's articles all the time.

Yep are you finding your your staff are getting to calls first the majority of the time chief and are you finding that sometimes sometimes paramedics aren't even showing up at all, or how is it affecting you know you guys day to day?

I I think you can't compare you can't compare uh Greater Victoria and the island to what they call metro Vancouver area.

We uh on our on our screens in in dispatch we can see uh the CAD and the calls for the Lower Mainland.

Um it is not uncommon on the lower mainland.

I think the record was fire was on scene with a patient for 16 hours without a response.

Uh it's not uncommon to have a two hour wait for an ambulance in Lower Mainland.

Here on the island, um, they have a bit of a different system here in Greater Victoria.

I think they're I think they're well staffed in Greater Victoria.

We do arrive first um on a lot of occasions, but not by much.

Um, and we're we're usually backed up by one, if not two ambulances.

We've never been refused an ambulance or had to leave a patient because of a of a delay.

I think we're really fortunate here in Greater Victoria.

Now I know during the heat wave there were significant waits because the system was completely overwhelmed and the 911 system through e-com collapsed and and they just weren't answering phones.

So there was a there was a built-in delay there.

But if we compare Greater Victoria to Greater Vancouver, it's it's a night and day operation.

I think we're very fortunate here on the island to have the service we have.

Um, but if it does become an issue, you know, there would be you'd be the first I'd I'd let know.

But things things were actually are good with our our partners here on the island.

Great.

Good hearing.

Thank you, Chief.

I want to thank you for doing your part and and your your team's part on saving Central British Columbia to the best of your ability.

I hear in fact I know when speaking to you earlier, you were in some pretty harrowing um situations.

And I'm just grateful that you're back to live.

Everything worked out well.

It all worked well and I'm and I'm back at a committee of the whole meeting.

Yeah.

So no, thank you for that.

That was uh it was a good summer and and thank you for for allowing me to go.

I know it's uh it's a stretch at times to to release staff or a small staff, but it is appreciated.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So don't run away because we're gonna discuss the totem polls.

Yes.

Oh, yes.

So that's not on the agenda.

Well, we just unofficially added it to the agenda.

So let me can can I um take it away just for a minute.

You want to take it away?

Okay, I thought maybe Paul was.

Okay.

Well, I mean, Paul, I'm sure, is going to interact with it.

So I went to see Tom yesterday.

Um, and I sent the you've seen the email, and he feels that he can easily get it done by the beginning of October.

Yes.

Um, so October is not the best month because of course we've got Thanksgiving and the weather begins to deteriorate.

So I sent the email suggesting the October 16th.

Because I think weather-wise, that if we leave it much later than that, we're definitely going to be asking for trouble.

We're going to mean trouble.

And Tom doesn't want it because of the size of it, once he puts the wings on, he doesn't want to be stuck with it in his tent until March or April.

So I'm sure you, along with staff, have this all under control, but I just I can't stress enough, you know, because of the events of the last few months, I think this has become a much bigger deal than it was when we, you know, ordered it, so to speak.

And we need to make sure that we invite the right people, that we do the ceremony in a culturally sensitive and appropriate way.

So it's going to take a bit of work, and that's why I want to put it out there to get your feedback and Kim's maybe as well on how you perceive that and is that enough time to be able to do that.

I did share an email.

Yes, Jan.

Did you see my email?

I have seen your correspondence.

Absolutely.

And the sensitivities and making sure that we that we respect the traditions and what we need to do to unveil this poll and this piece of public art.

It's going to uh it's going to stand for a long time.

LaFortune has described, sort of the meaning of the poll.

Um, you know, as uh as Mr.

Um it'll be an opportunity for for us, you know, all also to speak on the events of the the last three, six months, hundred years.

I think he he would do that for sure.

So yeah, uh you have my assurance everything will be in hand.

Um if it is inclement weather that day, we'll we'll make arrangements to perhaps tents or something in the in the apron where they can we can do the business indoors and and move to the outside.

We'll we'll figure that out.

Um but yeah, it is it is getting tight around the 16th of October.

Yeah, we could end up with a good day, we could end up with a really bad day.

But in terms of invitations, I mean certainly I think it would be important to invite RMLA and the and the chiefs absolutely as soon as possible, right?

Because yeah.

And BC Lotteries did commit to me personally that they're prepared to fund it.

So we should come up with some sort of a a thumbnail budget so that then I I can respond back with Kim and just say, you know, this is and they're probably going to want to be able to say a few words or be acknowledged, but that's fine.

Especially seeing as casino revenue paid for some of the poll.

So it may make sense.

Okay.

So that's great if you have it in hand.

Yes or um and we'll we will all council will all schedule that day in because it's important we're all there.

Yeah.

All the 16th.

Yeah.

I'll let you know if that date isn't going isn't going to work.

Uh we did have an earlier date set, and I believe that was tomorrow.

So we need to I need I need to make sure that our date is firm.

I would I would hate to set a date and then have it be the 22nd of October or sometime in November.

So I want to I want to make sure we nail that date down.

I agree.

I think I think Mr.

LaFortune needs to speak to Kim, and I think Kim will be able to make the necessary assurances that that date will all work.

I believe the CAO and I are visiting Mr.

LaFortune tomorrow.

Okay.

Yes.

Good.

Okay.

Terrific.

That's it.

Thank you.

Thank you for the first time.

Thank you all both.

It's a pleasure to be back and see you all.

Pleasure to see you both.

And that's it for my files.

Great.

So we'll go to finance and admin.

And first up, we have a staff report from our CAO Committee of the Whole Format.

Thank you, your worship.

Kim?

The um when the Committee of the Whole Format was introduced to the town of U Royal in 2003, it was presented as a means to eliminate five standing committees and combine them under the guise of a committee of the whole format.

There are no real obvious benefits to the creation of the five distinct subcommittees within the Cal, particularly with five different chairs, uh five different sessions that describes uh business arising, that sort of thing.

The committee of the whole function's main intention is to remove lengthened debate from the formality of regular council meetings.

It's a more informal setting to allow for more careful discussion and identification of issues.

It's often described as an opportunity to roll up your sleeves and get into a lengthy dialogue, which is not normal in the regular council meetings.

Staff supports the continued use of the community of the whole meetings.

We recommend that the five subcommittees be eliminated and instead continue with an agenda that ensures as much public participation as possible and uh identify which topics uh are of potentially more community interests to ensure that they're placed on that portion of the agenda in the evenings.

During the march, during the March, Committee of the Hall meeting, council requested a copy of the 2003 consultant report that has been attached to the report in front of you.

We in our work we determined that pretty much all local governments in the region, other than the chosen, have community of the whole structures.

Five of the municipal community of the whole are chaired by the mayor, and the other five are chaired by acting mayors in rotation.

The CRD CO is chaired by the chairperson of the board or the acting chairperson.

So the uh the staff is recommending that the committee recommended council in the beginning with the December 2021 Committee of the whole meeting, the committee of the whole structure be amended to remove the five subcommittees, and that the committee of the whole meetings be chaired on a rotating basis by the acting mayor, and further that the acting mayor's schedule be adjusted at the December 7th, 2021 meeting to ensure that councils rotate through the various quarters during the term of office.

Here we are intending to streamline the committee of the whole agenda, normalize it in terms of its structure, uh, and at the same time still facilitate the growth of council members, uh, enabling them to continue to chair meetings and um own their slip own their skills as chair and do that on a rotating basis.

Yeah, okay, thank you.

Counselor Councillor Mattson, go ahead.

Yeah, uh as you are probably aware, I mean I I'm not supporting this direction.

I in fact I would like to see us go back a little bit so that each of us has takes each of us for each of us who is responsible for an area takes more responsibility in terms of working in that area and and putting energy into it.

What I see this motion doing is just taking away everyone's responsibility or areas of interest.

And so instead of actually giving us something we can work on, it just blends everything all in and so that nobody's nobody has actually responsibility for for anything or or has that vested interest in any particular area like you know for example parks and rec or or policing that and I just see it as a a bad way for us to go.

And I would again as I mentioned before what I'd like to see is us actually working as each of the chair people for that area doing working more closely with the staff person who's ultimately responsible for that to get you know a better idea of the whole area and as well as to sort of feed information to them in terms of things you'd like to see.

So I just think this is a retrograde step that we're taking, and for that reason I just won't be able to support this.

Yeah, um I I guess I feel the same as as um Council Lemmon trying to figure out um uh what we're trying to fix.

Um and uh one of the thoughts I'd I'd had was the questions I had was if we took an agenda like July 3rd, 13th, um, community whole agenda, and we spun it around to a future December um proposed agenda, what would it look like?

Would that mean that um uh there would not be um um uh you know a focus on on finance and protective services in the afternoon portions?

Would it mean that some of the concerns and issues that the community has, particularly uh commute public has about planning and transportation that that would not happen in the evenings?

Um we had specifically as as we all know, put those things in the evenings because few people, except for the retired ones, would be able to attend uh the the afternoon sessions.

So it's um you know, and I guess I maybe I should sit in on one of the other um community um uh municipalities to uh see what that those formats were, how they manage.

Um I'm not averse to uh doing a pilot, an example of what um um this new format would look like in this stem of maybe a pilot.

Um, and and because I don't have to be steadfast as as a chair um for for parks, but I do wonder if um um like I always think of Damien as being the liaison for for transportation issues, and if that's not the case anymore, um and someone's got a transportation matter uh and they want to talk to a counselor about it.

Well, you know, do I still send them to Damien?

It's um it's an interesting um thought and and process.

I just don't know what that format would look like uh on a uh December committee as a whole.

Counselor Kowalovich.

Well, I have a little different view of the uh recommendation.

I uh I actually would welcome uh trying this out and for various reasons.

In particular, I think it would uh lend uh credence to uh grooming people for future positions, it would allow everyone to learn more about the portfolios and be able to uh speak to each particular section.

I I don't have any experience uh speaking to the other sections whatsoever.

I wouldn't actually mind um dealing with some other issues other than transportation at some point in my life, so that is something that a couple of reasons why I would support it.

I also think it lends uh experience to people running meetings themselves, uh, should they ever have to run them in the future, or just for overall professionalism of counsel in general as well, and and increasing our knowledge of Robert's rules and then hence having people adhere to those um in a proper manner moving forward.

So I I support it.

Okay, thank you.

So I guess for me, I mean, part of me thinks we have 13 months left in this term, and why change everything now?

But that might be a lazy perspective.

But I think what's missing in the comparison to other jurisdictions, like I know God, I hate using Sanage.

I'm not going to use Sanage, I'm going to use the CRD.

The CRD very rarely has CAL meetings.

Um, but we do have the advisory committees, and a member of the board chairs the advisory committees.

So there is more involvement there.

I know, for example, has a parks committee, um, and they have a safe streets committee and that sort of thing.

And those are almost all citizens, and one or two members of council, and the member of council chairs it.

Um so I guess what I'm saying is that there are ways there for the the members of council to take on more responsibilities because I do get councilor Mattson's point um about counselors having areas of responsibility.

Um and so who at the moment, I mean, not that really it happens much, but at the moment John is responsible for parks, and so in theory he should take the lead from a political point of view.

So if we do this, then who will be the political lead for parks or for public works under our current system?

Or under the proposed system, yeah, sorry.

Yeah, go ahead.

Well, the intention here is to eliminate that aspect of how we function.

It it establishes a responsibility to all of council to address all of the issues.

There is no concern about a single counselor having more time than another, resulting in more time being spent by that counselor on that issue while other issues may not be getting as much attention based on the uh circumstances of that individual counselor.

It also enables us to um place on the agenda at certain times those topics that are of particular concern or interest by the general public.

Currently, all planning items are dealt with in the evening, and some of those items may not necessarily be as much of an interest to the general public as items that are done during, say, the afternoon.

And so by eliminating that structure, we can enable more public exposure to those items of more public interest.

It also addresses an administrative issue.

Currently, in theory, you have one employee, and that's the CAO.

And so the amount of information that we exchange is between members of council and the CAO.

The historic approach where we actually had uh advisory committees where there was a committee with a counselor and staff participating on issues that ended in 2003.

And to revert back to that from an administrator's perspective is a step back albeit now you all have responsibility for all of the functions rather than a focus on a single function.

And by streamlining the um the process we can bring to the public's attention those items of particular interest during that time when the public is available.

John?

Yeah.

I I guess I'm thinking about this um this afternoon.

If we had a different format, would we all have that opportunity to be able to engage with the police and the fire department about, and we all had lots of different questions.

And I found that this this afternoon very enlightening, very useful.

Now we're going to focus on administrative things.

So these the groups, even though they're groups, I don't particularly care who chairs them.

I just enjoy the fact that we're all I get to hear everyone's viewpoints on on um and thoughts and questions um on that particular vein.

And I guess the the nice thing about having maybe the afternoon and and evening sessions is that staff don't have to be around uh called upon for the full time from 3 30 to 9 30 or whatever when they may come up come up in in the morning then they come up in the afternoon you know it means that they they'll have they have to set their time uh all that way so again i i i see the the the benefits and i wouldn't mind testing it but i think there's sure a lot of merits for how we've been doing it counselor lemmon?

This is just an observation um in looking through the um the other the other municipalities um committee of the whole um um systems, they most of them cancel they their committee of the whole meetings based on the amount that is expected for the agenda.

And my experience of three years, we've never canceled one.

And I don't know if one has ever been canceled in the years that you up, you know, you long servers have um have been on.

Rarely.

Yeah, yeah.

So you know, um I'm I you know it's it's it I'm I'm just putting out that out there as an observation, and I don't know if that's you know something we could consider as an option too.

Just one more, just a follow-up on a comment that Damien made.

Um, so every year in theory, we've been doing it on an annual basis.

I mean, I've been uh sort of chair of just about I think everything except for maybe no, I did do parks even at one time, I think.

So I mean there's an opportunity to rotate, and maybe we haven't been rotating enough to sort of give people that that other feel you know, to give that feel of things.

But you know, but I think that's one certainly way you can get a feel over the you know, certainly over term of all the different areas.

And by getting maybe just take the next step in and doing a little bit more work in an area and sort of working with with the staff, you actually get a more firmer understanding that a feeling like you're you're you're participating and adding more if you're sort of responsible and you're you're working with things and you know and a lot of things we haven't been doing, like you know, so you know, for example, if there is a policing question then you or a transportation question, you could just pass it on to Damien or Gary, and they would actually have to go out and sort of, if that was part of our plan to sort of go and work in that area and then sort of bring it back to an individual counselor's question, uh, you know, not just to get get all sorts of gripey things, but it's a way for the counselors to get sort of more in-depth knowledge of that particular area, as it as it is, you know, sometimes it's finance.

You figure, oh well, you know, David's gonna be dealing with that, so we don't have to worry about that.

Um, anyway, I just have that feeling that it was it's a step backwards for us under the proposal.

So I don't know where this is gonna go because I mean I am so on the I I do think it's important for the public to know that a member of council is taking a lead on a certain subject, and really that happens everywhere.

I mean, it happens at the CRD, it happens at um at other councils as well, and and this does eliminate that, and I have some difficulties with that.

But my difficulty is more, and Kim's gonna love this, but I think our whole committee structure needs to be redone, including the advisory committees.

Um, and I think, and I've thought this for years that you know, maybe advisory committee should actually be a combination of council members and public um that make recommendations directly to council and just skip the committee of the whole.

So, I mean, I often think that our committee of the whole is just a complete waste of time because let's face it, all five of us next Tuesday are gonna authenticate whatever we talked about today, and so in many ways, why do we even do it?

Right?

I mean, you know what I'm saying, right?

It's just so we don't spend three hours talking about well, I know a particular item that we could get a get get deal with today, for example.

Yeah, no, I know, but theoretically, we're uh this is supposed to be a more casual, which it is, but it is in some ways kind of silly that we're just that we're just the same body, just a different hat.

Um so they I'm not completely comfortable with this.

I'm I and I understand I know I know what Damien's saying, because I agree with Damien that it would be good for everyone to have the experience of running a meeting right from start to finish and handling the public part of it, the question period part of it, and the whole thing.

Um but I'm not completely comfortable with the notion that members of council, I think, and it's hard for me to say this without sounding pompous, but I think you need, I mean, you're your elected representatives and you need an area of responsibility in some way that you are working in.

That hasn't that that hasn't been working well in the past either.

So for whatever that's worth.

I agree with that.

And actually, I think that was my point.

We should be firming that up more, that area of responsibility, rather than expand upon just being the chair for that area.

So I guess I mean, seeing the the lack of consensus, I think the best thing is just a motion to receive at this point.

So we can show just a little bit.

This would be interesting.

Would we can another possibility would be that we continue on with protector citizens' finances in the morning or sorry in the afternoon, but in the evening we have simply another council meeting?

Yeah, I don't know that that would um so that gives us three council meetings in a month.

Yeah, I don't know that that would accomplish a whole lot from staff's perspective.

Um less than the delays for the app for the developers and applicants.

So, Kim, having heard our our sort of the mixed feedback, do you have anything else you want to contribute?

I I would want to reiterate that the purpose of the committee in the whole is to enable more discussion.

If we were to follow the procedure bylaw to the strict letter of the bylaw, you know, the uh the mover speaks, the seconder speaks, and each individual member of council gets an occasion to speak.

It's it's limiting.

Yeah.

And when we have a complex issue and there's a lot of iteration in the dialogue because it's complex and it's big, that's a committee of the whole discussion because you need to dispense with all those formalities of uh the procedure bylaw.

Otherwise, we need to rewrite the procedure bylaw and enable more dialogue during regular meetings.

It would eliminate the um the perspective that that uh Mayor Screech just described.

You know, when when you meet next week, you're just going to pass one resolution for all of the recommendations made today, and and that is a common format.

Yeah.

We can make a motion to deal with the stupid iPads that won't be.

I mean, it my read on the consensus of council is that there's some interest in trying this, there's some interest in just continuing the way we are and strengthening the roles of those chairs.

Um, so I mean, we need a motion of some sort on the floor, I think, and maybe we need to discuss this in a more informal sort of way at some point to see if we can come to a consensus on it.

We shouldn't let it fall.

Yeah, move your sheet.

Okay, second.

So it's moved and seconded by councillor Rogers and Lemon.

I think it's important to staff, so maybe we should try and and have an informal discussion um about it at some point and see if we can come up with some sort of compromise of of what would work.

Maybe if we did as a workshop.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

So all in favor, opposed.

That's okay.

Thanks, Kim.

So next we have item B, which is the financial planning process and calendar.

And this looked fairly straightforward, Don, in terms of you're just looking for a motion to approve this.

I'll move, I'll move to approve.

Okay, that's definitely six thousands because it won't come on my screen anymore.

So the financial planning process and calendar is a motion to approve and that right and the extra six thousand dollars for an online engagement tool.

Yeah.

Okay.

Moved by Councillor Mouse.

Seconded by Councillor Lemon.

Everyone good all in favor opposed that's carried financial planning targets just before we get into this I'm I'll let Don take over obviously but I just I want to point out my own personal observation that the the idea that we're we're only going to get a hundred thousand in new revenue is, I think, very conservative, given that we've had three major rezonings um and and a fair amount of new builds.

So that's I would just throw that out there before we get too stressed about the potential tax increase.

That I think the new revenue may be more significant than that.

Don?

Your worship, thank you.

And uh members council.

Yes, I I don't have anything to add that's not in the report for sure.

And um your worship, uh your point about the estimates for you know new construction um and and the uh potential tax revenue from new construction, certainly $100,000.

You know, we we don't have those numbers yet, but we will have that um, you know, closer to the time that council sits down to actually formally look at the budget in February.

Council asked for this uh opportunity to discuss the you know kind of targets before we put the budget together for council's consideration in February.

And so this report really is at the request of council so that you can at least give us perhaps some guidance and some idea of your priorities and direction going into developing that budget.

This is just your opportunity to help us understand what you would like to see in terms of priorities for that budget cycle.

Okay, thank you.

And and I think why you're asking in in a fashion is what I mean, as well, as well as what the priorities are, obviously, in terms of funding reserves and things that we need to look at, but also what may be an acceptable tax increase.

Your worship, that would be extremely helpful, even if it was a range.

Right.

Okay.

So I was just about to say I'm not going to start with Counselor Mattson on this one, but seeing as you've got your hand up, go ahead.

I mean, staff gave us sort of three options that we could look at, but one of the things we haven't done in like like for example, the reduced services option.

I mean, I don't really know what that means and what it would look like.

And and especially right now, yeah, you know, I don't want to say let's reduce services until we have a better idea of what's happening in you know for next year's budget.

Is it gonna are we gonna have to do the the 8% or will it be less just in terms of additional revenue coming on stream, etc.

But what I would like to see or at least have available when we start having those discussions is are there things that we can re reduce service levels on and what this what what those savings would be.

I mean the my old days in the ministry they used to say you know come up with three budget proposals, you know, that this is you know plus two percent, you know, zero percent and minus two percent sort of thing.

Yeah, I'm not suggesting we do we go to that extreme, but at least uh give us some things that we can you know if we have to cut and or if things are looking bad, at least give us some you know some options that we can look at without saying oh we're gonna you know you know get rid of three staff or you know or some other things that are just totally unpalatable to us.

Okay, thank you.

Counselor Rogers.

Yeah, thanks.

Uh yeah.

I guess what I'm I'm missing here, and and it it sounds hopeful that we um might be getting some more revenues from uh the bills that are going on.

Uh question one, it um any hope of getting any CACs?

Well, they won't help with our operating budget.

No, but this is all operating budget.

It is, yeah.

I know.

But I'm um when I think of you know, the um yeah, and well, yeah, I guess the same could be said for you know casino, how are we doing for the casino but we don't have much operating there either.

No, no that's right.

I mean this is really just the operating as a CACs we will be getting some for sure.

And I'm sure we'll discuss a budget how we're going to be using those.

Because I I think of the CAC you know when we talk about one of the options um uh we could um go to the surplus pool again well uh I understand uh staff's uh cautions on that um but what we did in in the last couple of years was we uh pull back on the projects.

We we delayed a lot of the projects.

And so I guess my question to staff is um in in this um planning, is that an option to also um hold the course and um uh go minimal on projects is that a question for me your worship that's yes it is John okay sorry about that yes I mean certainly uh and and the effect that you know pulling back on projects would have on say a level of taxation would depend on how much of that project is actually indeed funded by taxation so you you know so it's it's hard for me to say at this point in time that pulling back on projects would affect a certain level of taxation be without knowing the specifics of how a particular project is meant to be funded.

Well, you know, and I guess one of the another way of looking at it, um, we um specifically plan not to uh inject funding, if you like, in our GCCs and various reserves.

And so a lot of our projects come from those reserve funds.

So if we do not spend from the reserve funds, does that help um uh give us uh uh another uh you know chance of regaining uh some fiscal strength?

Um my response to that would be yes, indeed.

Uh, you know, I think the other way to think about that is um if I'm understanding what you're saying, is that if we res if we reduce our our contributions to reserves each year, that will fund fewer or will defer more projects to future years that we can fund from those reserves it it's it's two sides uh two different sides of the same coin um for sure and and that it and that is an option but we need to choose that option understanding what the repercussions are thank you on my left um comments thoughts just to comment i don't like any of the options so so um that's neither do I okay nor nor do I like the consequence of none of the options.

Um so I you know, I would say I don't think anyone any of us will um stand for that possibility for next year's um or this coming this coming year's um tax increase.

And uh I I don't want to go enemy mo on any of those options.

I I hope that there will be some some kind of um largesse from somewhere that will allow us to live with have a budget we could live with.

Another province COVID budget.

Damien, no.

Okay.

So I guess from me, um I mean, obviously, this next year is not gonna be one where we're gonna council's gonna support an 8% tax increase.

So, but I mean, in the last couple of iterations, we've done a good job collectively with staff, I think, of working through and massaging the increase to something that was livable and supportable.

So I'm okay with that.

Um, I'm also okay with putting off, you know, if it takes us two or three or four years to bring our reserve funding back up to the level that it may have been, I'm also okay with that.

I'm not big on excuse me, on cutting services.

I mean, the community survey that we did, the vast majority of the residents said they were very happy with the level of services that we provide in the town, and they were prepared to pay to five.

But having said that, I mean, to make counselor Matson feel a bit more comfortable, maybe we should look at, you know, a a couple of cuts possibly that would work, and then council can make a decision on that, um, on whether they choose to support it.

But my I mean, my gut reaction to help you with a percentage is that it'd be really hard for us to support anything over five, um, and possibly even a little bit less than that.

Well, you nobody else offered a number.

I'm offering a number.

If you want to offer a number, you can do so.

Um, but you know, that would be my my sort of gut feeling as as we head into it.

And and hopefully the new revenue may surprise us because last year was was such a disaster.

Yeah.

Didn't we start at 12 last year?

We started very high last year.

And what'd we end up at three?

What was it last year?

No.

It was more than more four.

4.4 or something?

Just under five.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I and I I um in in the list there uh I am really concerned about reducing uh reserve contributions.

So I think if we know what those reserve contributions would normally be going towards and again, I'll bring up the projects uh that then um probably would help um uh lessen and you know still give us an opportunity to contribute to uh reserves um we're gonna have to make it up, but somehow, some point.

I think while the taxpayer doesn't want to pay eight, I think they understand with the rationale that uh we're still coming out of uh COVID with all sorts of um um struggles.

We're not getting the provincial funding, and uh and I would I would be willing to look at six, six percent.

Yeah, well, I mean, I wouldn't for sure in an election year.

I know it's an election year, but it's so you know, I mean, we if you look at your staff have provided a graph here of reserve fund contributions and how we cut them in 2021 and their suggested increase back up, which is 130, 190, 290, 315.

There's about four and a half percent well no maybe four percent there alone and i personally think we can look at a more staggered way to get us there which would make the tax increase more palatable so but i i certainly wouldn't be supporting over five percent this year unless it was absolute you know life and death urgencies that um we couldn't do something else David my iPad's not opening properly as well but I'm assuming that none of this includes the anticipated RCMP salary increase, Don.

Yeah.

Kim, do you want to or Don may have the answer to that?

But no.

I'll defer to Kim.

We don't have any numbers yet on which to establish that budget.

So it's a very um questionable number at this point.

Yeah.

And that may be something that we can use our police operating reserve to offset a little bit again and and break it in and offset it for a couple of years somehow.

Counselor Matson.

Yeah, but just if that's if all of a sudden we have an equivalent 4% increase or something because of that, uh it's pretty hard to ship that over our years because you have to keep building back up, so it's it's right.

Like in the olden days, we put a ton of money away, so we were able to sort of wean people into it, sort of thing.