Council Meeting

Good evening, everyone.

I'm going to call the council meeting to order and start the meeting by recognizing the Lakwungan speaking people, known today as the Esquimalt Nation and the Songhees Nation, and that their historic connections to these lands continue to this day.

So welcome to the folks in the room tonight.

For those watching virtually, we do have very limited capacity in council chambers at the moment because of COVID-19 and because of physical distancing.

But for all of you watching virtually, you are able to participate in the meeting as if you were here.

And so tonight on the agenda, there is three development permits, 335 Stewart, 333A Stewart, and then 298 Island Highway.

And each of those have their own slot in the agenda where you can speak to them.

So if you wish to speak to them, you dial 778-402-9227, and then you enter conference ID 625-795-498 pound at the appropriate time.

And we will funnel you through to the room and you'll be able to speak to council in in real time.

If you would like to speak to counsel about anything else on the agenda tonight, other than the development variance permits, you can speak to us under public participation, which will be coming up very shortly.

So if you're hoping to speak to anything else on the agenda, I I would call in now because we will be there momentarily.

And with that, can I get a motion to approve the agenda, please?

So moved.

Second.

Moved by Councillor Madsen, seconded by Councillor Rogers.

All in favor, opposed, that's carried.

And then we have minutes from October 19th.

Move adoption.

Thank you.

Second.

Moved by Councillor Rogers, seconded by Councillor Mattson.

Any comments, corrections?

No.

All in favor?

Opposed?

That's carried.

I don't have any mayor's report tonight.

No petitions and delegations.

So we are at public participation period.

So this again, is for anyone who wishes to speak to an item on the agenda other than the development permits.

Do we have any callers on the line stuff?

Your worship, at the moment we have no callers on the line.

Okay, thank you.

So we will close public participation period and we'll go straight down to 8.1A, which is the environmental DP for 335 Stewart Avenue.

Steph?

Thank you, Your Worship.

Uh my name is James Davison.

I'm the community planner here at the town of V Royal.

Uh, this is an application to add one galvanized 12-inch piling to the existing dock.

Uh, I think the the report said stainless, but stainless is extraordinarily expensive.

Galvanized piling.

Add one galvanized piling and replace a creosote piling with another one.

So grand total of two galvanized pilings will be on that dock.

Our official community plan supports the use of stainless or excuse me, galvanized pilings or metal pilings and discourages the creosote pilings.

Staff is recommending approval of the development permit with a variance from 15 meters to zero meters for the setback thank you okay thank you any questions for staff councilor rogers yes thank you um certainly if uh i'm i'm okay with the the galvanized did you say that we're replacing a an existing creosote with a creosote replacing an existing creosote with a galvanized okay right i just want to make sure i heard that thank you everybody else is good so there is an opportunity for comments from the applicant i don't know if the applicant's with us on the phone or i'm not sure that there's any need.

That must be the applicant, is it?

Mr.

Crusher.

I'm here.

Thank you very much for looking through this.

Okay, thank you.

Okay, and then we have an opportunity for comments from the public.

Do we have any callers on the line, staff?

No, your worship.

At this time we do not.

Okay, thank you.

And there's no correspondence.

So if someone would like to move staff's recommendations, staff's recommendation.

Okay, it's moved by Councillor Lemon, seconded by Councillor Matson.

Comments, thoughts?

All in favor.

Opposed.

That's carried.

Thank you.

Thank you, staff.

And next, I think this one is gonna look awfully similar.

It is for 333A Stewart Avenue.

Yes, thank you, Yorship.

The only difference with this application, uh, the the applicant is the same, the uh the contractor is the same.

Uh there are no pilings on this dock, and they are planning to put two galvanized pilings on the dock uh for similar conditions.

The the weather that the dock receives there is such that uh it is not stable during storms and in the winter.

Thank you.

No, I'm sorry.

Okay, well, hang on, we're not quite there yet.

Oh, okay.

Any questions?

No.

No.

Okay, again, we know the applicants on the line if we need him.

Is there any comments from the public?

Do we have any callers on the line, staff?

No, your worship.

And there's no correspondence on this one.

Once again, we do not.

Okay, thank you.

So now, Councillor Lemmon, if you'd like to move the move by Councillor Lemon, seconded by Councillor Mattson.

Could I just make a comment?

Yep.

Um, I just wanted to say that you know, um the these two applications are consistent with um um 314 Besborough, who also have pylons for much same conditions.

So just wanted to throw that in there and say it's uh consistent.

Thank you.

Yep, all in favor, opposed, that's carried.

So next up, we have development permit for 298 Island Highway.

And something tells me there'll be a little bit more discussion about this one than the previous two.

Staff.

Jeff Chal Senior Planner.

Thank you, worship.

This is an application for a farm and character development permit to construct a six-story mixed commercial and residential building.

Variances are requested for the percentage of small car parking spaces and the number of commercial loading spaces.

And the upper floors would be comprised of 55 apartment units.

There would also be a shared rooftop deck on the southeast end of the top floor.

The building materials are hardy has about cementous siding, panel siding, and with uh with more glazing at the ground floor commercial floor space.

Unix mix is composed mostly of one and two bedroom units with one three bedroom units.

This uh presentation here we can see that the island highway um island highway uh elevation of the building that shows the context with the adjacent uh apartment building at Lions Cove.

The building is six stories um but it is sunken into the slope so the roof line will be roughly equivalent to the four story lions cove apartment building this is a landscape plan that shows the um shows how much of the building is occupied by how much of the sites occupy the building and shows the um uh along the island highway there there is a there's a wide public road right away uh that is proposed to be used for a public plaza as an extension from this site and here are some renderings of what that plaza would could look like.

The issues for consideration include how it addresses the development permit area guidelines, zoning bylaw uh there are some encroachments to consider, and site servicing as well as Environmental Management Act requirements.

The proposals generally in compliance with the neighborhood mixed use development permit area.

The building is located close to the street to engage in the public realm.

The top two floors are set back to create a more human-scale pedestrian level.

At the commercial level, there would be more extensive glazing to create a more inviting and high-quality streetscape.

While there are no opportunities for large trees on the site, the uh the building is an urban-type building that creates a nice backdrop to an outdoor social social gathering space on the public plaza.

The project generally complies with the zoning.

It was rezoned earlier this year and complies with all the zoning requirements except for two.

There was an earlier note about commercial parking, but that has been rectified.

So it does comply fully with the commercial parking requirements.

The zone requires no more than 30% of parking spaces to be small car spaces.

In this proposal, because of the constrained site, the requested to permit up to 60% of the small car of the spaces to be small car spaces.

And what that means is they will still meet the same width requirements of a standard parking space, but they would be shorter.

So that uh so that an average size car could fit, but um, but a large pickup truck would probably not be the um not be able to fit in that location.

The other variant is for the number of loading spaces.

So with regard to the small car spaces, um because this project is a uh condominium project that will be sold, um the parking space would be disclosed as would be part of the disclosure statement, and subsequent purchasers in the future um could inspect the parking space as well before the purchase it, make sure it's suitable for their for their needs.

Uh the request is to vary from two spaces to one.

And that's considered not significant for this project, given the scaled commercial use.

This is at the low end of that that that margin.

Jeff, I'm just gonna get counselor Rogers didn't hear your comment about the small vehicle parking space.

And what I understood you to say was that they're the regular width, but not as long as a regular spot.

That's correct.

Counselor Matson.

I don't want to get into questions.

I'd like to let Jeff finish.

This is more of a just my my question was just to to Kim.

I just wondering if staff for COVID reasons need to wear a mask at this point, or can they stretch out further?

Because I think it's mask is just making it more difficult for us to think.

Okay.

In this case, there's not very many people here today, so I will uh go ahead, thank you.

Thanks.

Okay.

I mean, it should be what every staff is comfortable with, I think.

Yeah, that's what I was asking.

All right.

Uh there are two encroachments proposed as part of this site where uh where portions of the development extend onto the public road right away.

The first one is an aerial encroachment for ornamental features that project from the building and that the comprising of canopy space, and the second is for the plaza.

This type of these types of encroachments are not uncommon in urban areas where buildings are located close to the property line.

Uh the development permit deals with on site issues.

So these off site off site encroachments will be addressed in a separate process, it will be done at the proponent's cost.

The first one is the canopies.

This diagram here shows the general extent of the encroachments.

And that extend out beyond the building.

And there's also a third one at the corner, right at the intersection, where a road dedication will be will be made.

And that's for a again for the entrance canopy to the to the commercial floor space.

The second encroachment is for the public plaza, which is on the south side, uh, sort of the the bottom of the screen there, and that is to um that is to allow a uh a plaza that's that will um include some street furniture and other uh other kind of uh things that create a social gathering space.

In terms of site servicing, uh the there's a three by three-meter by three-meter corner cut at the island highway intersection, uh required prior to permit building, prior to building permanent issuance.

Uh a number of the other issues that were identified at the at the community hall have been addressed.

Um the key ones here is that uh no trees can be planted within the sewer statutory right-of-way, which runs along the back of the property because there was a sewer line there, and the roots would interfere with that space and interfere with the ability to maintain that.

But the applicant will have to work with the engineering department to ensure that construction around that space will not interfere with the uh the sewer line.

To Helmkin.

This air photo shows that location.

This concept is something that the engineering department is willing to explore because it is more of a highway type turning arrangement.

However, the this intersection is proposed for a future upgrade in the future and should be addressed at that time because the issue created by cars turning at that location are not as a result of this development.

But and there was some major costs there because there are traffic lights signals and holes that need to be relocated.

At this point, this project is not identified in the Transportation Master Plan.

So when a more comprehensive look at that intersection comes by, that will be the time to investigate the potential for changing this lane configuration.

In terms of the Environmental Management Act, this site used to be at one time a service station, and there's been some site contamination that has been addressed through independent site remediation.

The applicant has applied for a site release to allow the development permit to be issued.

However, there is a uh there is a backlog.

So the approval tonight would be conditional on getting a um site release to permit the development.

Approval would allow the applicant to continue when working on other aspects of the project, including off-site servicing and the encroachments, will, which will also take some time.

The recommendation is to approve the development permit, that the uh variant the two requested variances be approved, and that conditions to uh conditions to the development permit include a covenant to require that parking space, the commercial parking be available for shared use by residential visitors during non-business hours, uh, to um require that the communal rooftop deck uh facing the lines coast coast development will have um restricted hours of operations between uh between 10 p.m.

and 7 a.m.

to avoid any excess noise.

And this is similar to what was approved for the uh quantana development uh that the proposed encroachments be addressed prior to building permit issuance uh that the corner cut at the island highway home can intersection be dedicated as road prior to building permit issuance exterior lighting to be dark skies friendly and that a security deposit for on site landscaping be provided that concludes the presentation okay thank you staff so we'll go to questions from council and then we'll hear from the applicant councillor Kowalovich.

Thank you uh mr.

Chow, is there is there any kind of uh update and or you know revision to the commercial space or what is that designated out currently?

So the commercial space as in oh yes, so the uh there's a comprehensive development zone was approved, and that specifically permitted only a neighborhood type grocery.

So um so that you wouldn't be able to have like office space or whatever.

So so only a develop uh commercial tenant that would be something similar to Red Barn Market or Bifestyle Market would be able to occupy that ground floor space.

And that's the same still.

That's correct.

Okay.

Thanks.

That's enshrined in in the zoning.

Perfect.

Yeah.

Councilor Lemmon.

Yeah, thank you.

Um Jeff, the if it's granted, it's the variance, but the 60% for small cars, is that residential and commercial or just residential?

Or just commercial?

Through your worship, it's uh it's just the residential spaces.

Okay, okay.

So the the parking for the commercial aspect, will it be the same size?

Um through your worship, the uh spaces would be would meet standard parking uh okay.

So there'd be room for a pickup truck, whereas there might not be room for a Ford 350 um downstairs.

That's correct.

Okay.

Um thank you.

Will there be turnaround room for a garbage truck or a you know a semi or will they have to back out onto Helmkin?

Uh through your worship.

The uh the garbage space is actually at the end of the uh show.

Don't know if I have that in the plans here.

Um the the garbage and recycling would would be uh you wouldn't have a large vehicle um going into into the uh into the dock.

It would be a a regular sized vehicle that takes the garbage out off the site.

They have to be a smaller vehicle.

Okay, so what so what about a large truck coming in doing a delivery though?

Will it be able to turn around to get out or will it have to back out uh they would have to back out onto helm can or back in yeah okay all right cool yeah interesting um and and to the question of the small uh small vehicle parking that will be a matter of strata policing i guess through your that's correct okay all right thank you very much i just just but off the cuff observation, but someone who's driven a delivery trucks for most of my working life, it's not unusual at all to have to back into a commercial space off a street.

So Councillor Matson.

Yes, thank you.

Um one of the concerns from any sort of you know larger development you hear is where are the guests going to park?

Yeah.

Uh through your worship.

Um during well, during the evening where there's there's usually more demand, um, they would be able to use the commercial parking spaces.

Sorry, that's 12 spaces again.

No, there's uh there's actually a total of 29 uh commercial parking spaces.

Yeah.

They would be accessed, there is some in the underground parking, so some can be accessed off Helmkin, but the main lot would be off uh would be off Island Highway.

Okay, thank you.

Uh I just want to follow up on Councillor Mattson's point.

Councilor Rogers?

Yes, thanks.

Um, so the visitor parking, uh, you're saying there's some visitor parking underground with the residential, but if there's also the option of being able to park um, you know, in the business commercial area after hours.

What are the hours of the business um that we've got in the bylaw?

Um through your worship, that's not specified.

No.

Yeah, it'll depend on the tenant.

Yeah, I guess my concern is that if it's going to be um a business going on till nine, ten o'clock at night, um, who knows what um real practical opportunities there will be for after hours parking, either by residents or guests um if um you know if the hours you know are extended on on the the the commercial so um I I question the the practicality I like the intent but um it's not like it's gonna be a nine to five business so I'm a little concerned about that the um aspect of uh having sixty percent small parking small vehicles the does that change the net number of parking stalls for resident uh no but it does mean that the those tenants with large trucks will not be able to park.

You know, if we've exceeded, they're not gonna be able to park underneath.

That's correct.

So the only option is for them to park either in the commercial or somewhere around the neighborhood.

Or they should pardon me?

The parking spaces would be disclosed to them at the time of at the time of uh purchase.

Yeah.

Okay.

So just one quick question for me.

My understanding is that this meets the parking requirements in all aspects.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

I you know I appreciate that.

It's my sort of my concern.

Can you show us um I I really can't vision the three by three corner cut um where that is?

Um it's this little triangle right here.

Right there.

Okay.

Yeah.

And that has to do with um currently the sidewalk actually encroaches onto the property.

So as part of this project, we would ensure that it no longer encroaches onto private property.

Yeah.

I I appreciate the um uh staff's diligence on on having a covenant for um uh rooftop activities and and that it shuts down at 10 p.m.

That's that's great.

Um does the uh rooftop still have uh glass screening to uh lessen the um the noise from the rooftop to the alliance cove.

Uh through your rulership, uh this landscape plan conveniently shows the rooftop terrace as well.

Uh there would be landscape, uh landscape planting around the edges that face residential properties.

There would also be uh a two-meter lattice screening.

I think you worship, that's all I have.

There'd be a screen.

Okay, so we'll go to the applicant.

Welcome to the applicant.

Thank you muted.

Thank you, worship and counsel.

Um really appreciate uh being in front of you yet again.

Um I really don't have a lot to add um other than to um uh point of clarification.

Um if I'm not mistaken, um uh we had organized that the um uh hours of operation for the grocery store um are limited um to 8 p.m.

if I'm not mistaken.

Um I also want to point out that you know beyond uh the dinner hour, the parking for the commercial severely dies off.

Um, and that's kind of the um the rationale for um using those stalls via covenant um for um for for um visitor stalls.

Um you know during um peak periods there there there is um uh an additional uh residential stall that can be used for visitors.

Um and um I think that we're kind of well and and I believe that given the number of stalls relative to the the the small size of the grocery store, uh we're more than um well parked on this site.

Um one other point of clarification, if I may.

Um the there was confusion about um commercial or um trucks um backing up.

I mean, we we've done a lot of research and and consulted with a lot of the sort of grocery store companies.

Um we're we're not bringing semis onto this site.

Um these are sort of small delivery vans.

It's a neighborhood grocery store, it's not sort of a big cake or sorry, Save on.

Um so basically they're they're basically everything sort of comes in in smaller bands, and they do not have to back out onto the street.

There's enough circulation.

Um the loading zone is kind of you can't see it in this drawing, but it's underneath the building.

Um, and the loading zone, um, basically the the truck comes in, it backs into the loading zone and and exits out onto the um highway itself.

Do we have a um a ground level plan there by chance, Jeff?

If not, am I able to share a screen or no?

You should be able to, in theory.

Fantastic.

Can you see that?

Yeah.

We can see that, yes.

Fantastic.

Okay.

So, yeah, the the the commercial uh loading truck comes in here, he backs up into here, and then takes a right out and a right out onto the highway again.

So there's um there's certainly no need for um a truck to to back out um out of this operation.

Um, that was really the only two things that I wanted to point out, uh, your worship and council, but I'm certainly here for any more questions as they may arise.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you.

I'll see if there's any questions for the applicant.

Okay.

Okay, Councillor Rogers.

Yes.

Uh thank you for the clarification on on the um business hours closing 8 p.m.

What time will they open?

I I think we're kind of ahead of ourselves in terms of.

I mean, I don't recall, and maybe staff can can help out there, but I don't recall us ever setting hours for the business at this point in time.

No.

I I know the the proponent mentioned 8 p.m., but I don't think that we have ever set hours at this point in time.

Yeah.

So I think it's possibly not fair to be labeling business hours before we know that.

I I guess I you wish I just wanted to seek some clarification to ensure the liability.

I mean, um, this is very encouraging that it's 8 p.m.

That's great.

But it just gives I know these these uh anyone parking it will have to be out of uh when the business opens.

Do you have any time any idea of what the hypothetical business at this point might open for the day to the applicant?

Um my experience has taught me that it's um 7 a.m.

and um um I I'm just receiving text here from my clients as we're going along and and oh I'm sorry.

Um he was of the understanding that it was 8 p.m.

that we closed, but he's singing either at eight or eight or nine.

But as I say, the the the traffic um into these um grocery stores severely dies off after the dinner hour.

Yeah.

Thank you.

And in terms of the business hours, I I would encourage you to work with staff on that.

They'll have the pertinent information for you.

Thank you, Your Worship.

Thank you, your worship.

The zoning bylaw actually and this uh site specific zone already addresses that issue, and the hours of operation are 6 a.m.

to 10 p.m.

Um as with within the zoning.

However, that would be the absolute maximum.

So it it it it is encouraging to hear that um the applicant is considering shorter hours, and I I do uh uh acknowledge that this type of use does have um a significant drop in activity after uh after usually 6 p.m.

Um so that is why we are quite quite comfortable having a shared parking arrangement in this in in this particular site.

Okay, thank you.

Do we have any other questions for the applicant?

No, everybody's good.

Yeah.

So we now will go to comments from the public.

So we'll start um in the room and then we'll go to people on the phone.

So for you at at home, you would dial 778-402-927 and then enter conference ID number 625-795-498 pound.

Now I'm presuming to the folks in the rooms that you did you have anything that you wanted to speak or any questions or the uh important commercial spaces, not 29.

Okay, so the question is about the number of commercial spaces.

Mr.

Chow, are you able to answer that?

Uh through the chat, I can confirm it is 29.

29.

Okay.

Thank you.

Good.

Staff, do Director Jones.

We'll just need name and address for the record, please.

Sure.

Paula McCurrent.

Right.

N C H E R R O one.

And it's 288 Alcumbo.

Great.

Thank you.

Staff, do we have any callers on the line?

Your worship, we do have one caller with the last four digits of 0604.

Okay, thank you.

So caller with the last four digits of zero six zero four.

This is your opportunity to speak.

You could start by giving us your name and address, please.

Hi, this is Kathy Blanchard, and I've got two hats on today.

One a resident at Lions Cove, which is 290 Island Highway, and the other is with my climate coalition hat.

Um, is this an appropriate time to ask any questions about the development permit, or is it limited to variances?

Well, try your question and I'll tell you.

Oh no, no, I I have a whole list.

So, and a lot of it does relate to parking opportunity for the public to give give council their opinions about the development permit, but we will always try to within reason see the questions are answered.

But if you have a long, long list, then no, this is isn't the right time for that.

Well, I I have received the answer.

I emailed the architect and he was able to respond to me, but I still would like to offer my opinion about some of the parking issues.

I have no concerns.

Absolutely, go ahead.

Okay.

Um I have no concerns about the uh parking uh the sizes of the that they're increasing 60 percent on small spaces.

Hopefully, people are getting smaller cars.

One of the things we the notice that we received included in that notice was a variance to the number of commercial parking spaces saying reducing it from 19 to 18.

So that may have been some confusion for a lot of people.

I know it was for me, and I had to do a lot of research, which which prompted a lot of the question or the comments that I have to say.

There being signage at two separate parking lots telling people to go other places if those parking lots are full.

And Tim said yes, there will be signage at both at the entrance to the parquet and at the at the open the surface lot.

And another issue is people I'm not sure if you're familiar, but in front of the Salvation Army, there was an attempt to prevent people from turning left across the center divider.

And so they cross-hatched a section like an island.

And hopefully that's not what's being considered for the location of the entrance on Island Highway to the surface lot because people just use that as a place to park and they hold up traffic all over the place.

And so hopefully that there is going to be a rain garden in there rather than that idea or some kind of barrier.

Most visitors come during the day, so I'm puzzled by that being an acceptable solution.

I would think that at 10 o'clock at night there aren't too many households that are expecting visitors.

And Tim did mention that there was one stall within the locked gate for visitors, and that would be accessible to repair people, although he did tell me that it was unlikely there were going to be any repair people because it was a new building.

But I'm looking further down the road and quite frequently at Lions Cove, we have a lot of repair people coming and going because people want to up excuse me, upgrade their suite.

And those people aren't here for an hour, they're here for a couple of days.

So visitor parking really is a critical component, and maybe there could be some consideration to, and I don't know if this is allowable through the town or not, but that the designated commercial spaces that there is an agreement all day long with the commercial tenant that they do permit visitors to park in some of the spaces.

On the um the parking on Eltham because that is the only other place that people can park.

Miss Blanchard, I I am going to interject because this this proposed development meets all of our parking requirements.

There is there is no variance being given to our parking requirements.

I understand.

Okay.

Can can I continue?

Yeah.

Okay, good.

Um there was a proposed cedar hedge on Lyons Cove property, and I asked him how that was intended to be watered because cedars have been planted there before and they died.

So I think it's a great idea, and he responded and said it will be irrigated.

I also asked him about the lighting as it may affect Lyons Cove, and he said all lighting will not be directed outwards, which would have a possible negative effect on Lyons Cove.

And he said very similarly, the parking lot lighting that would be the case, that it would be directed downward.

I also asked or about the on site, he's in the sustainability checklist.

He said he was going to have on site recycling or on site composting.

And I was a little curious about that.

Does he actually mean, and maybe Jeff could answer this question, does he actually mean that they are going to be composting something?

And I was wondering about odors and that kind of thing, or is he merely suggesting that there will be the appropriate bins for recycling and for food waste pickup, which isn't an issue, of course, but composting could be, and what's murder's rats and things.

Um what else I have here?

And that's about it.

I'm hoping that they have sufficient space for all the recycling and uh trash collection stuff, because it takes far more bins than might otherwise in the past might have been required.

Anyway, I appreciate you listening to my lengthy discussion here, and I hope that the development permit goes ahead and everybody's happy.

Okay, thank you for the call.

I will get you the answer on the recycling and the composting if I can.

I suspect the applicant might be the best one.

Applicant, are you prepared to speak to that?

Very much so.

Um, when I mentioned in my dialogue um today with the um the caller that was just on, and I mentioned that we're composting, um, you might have noticed up on the communal floor um where we um have the outdoor um uh where we have the outdoor space, and we talked about um limiting the hours of that earlier.

Um, there's actually vegetable plots up there for community gardens so they can grow their own vegetables.

And typically, when we do those, we'll put just sort of a little compost in up there so that we can sort of recycle fresh soil.

It's not at ground level and it's not subject to rats or rodents or anything else.

Thank you, your worship.

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Kathy.

Staff, do we have any other callers on the line?

No, your worship at this time we have no new callers.

Okay, thank you.

So we have correspondence A through D to receive.

Okay, it's moved and seconded.

All in favor.

Opposed, that's carried.

And then we have staff's recommendation if someone's prepared to move it.

So moved.

Okay, moved by Councillor Madsen.

Second.

Seconded by Councillor Kwalowich.

Discussion.

Yeah, so in terms of discussions, I mean, one of the things I'd like about this project and agreed with it and the rezoning was because of the public amenity.

And I think that the incursions into public space uh that were mentioned again just increase the ambience and make it a better public space.

So I I certainly support those.

One of the things I will think that uh you know council will need to look at is once this building is up and some of the other ones that are are currently planned for the street, we're gonna have to look at putting no parking on any of the smaller streets, like in terms of where the tires hit the curve or the asphalt.

Otherwise, we're going to be getting cars lined all the way up and down the streets of of people who uh are trying to come to these I mean the same way we found in all the other larger condominiums we we've built we have the same problem parking and I think it's inevitable it's going to happen unless we put in rules to prevent them from putting their tires on the streets sort of thing so but just something for us to look at in the in the future but I certainly support the development I think it's a good uh good project for the community and thank you for the to the developer.

Thank you.

Counselor Kowalovich Well I agree with Counselor Matson.

I think there's going to be some growing pains as usual with the new development and adding a commercial element to something like this will will increase the traffic, no doubt.

And boutique grocery stores are particularly popular when they open.

I think it'll it'll end up working itself out in the long run, hopefully.

And and I agree, yes, we'll have to uh monitor traffic and parking in the area, certainly.

Uh I do uh I do support this.

I think it's wonderful for the community.

It's it's a great use of space for this location.

Um it's going to create uh robust uh tax base uh from uh moving up um uh in stories.

Uh and I also do uh I do approve it with thought from the neighbors, and I know that it will have an effect on them.

Uh, but I do believe it's the right decision for the community as a whole.

Okay, thank you.

Anyone else?

Councillor Rogers?

Yes, yeah, thank you.

Um I have a guarded um um acceptance of this.

Um, and I I appreciate again uh the covenants, um uh the cooperation between staff and and applicant on the two covenant aspects.

That's great.

Um I am hearing neighborhood concerns about um uh the traffic um issues.

We um in around the Choko area uh we there were certainly traffic issues and and so we adjusted it so anyone from the condos uh there could park anywhere on Chioko and and the the surrounding area.

Um so I don't know if we're going to be able to um do any uh pick and choosing of who parks where if um if these uh individuals had move into the this complex 298, if they've been bred truck, big trucks, they can't get in, they park elsewhere.

I don't think there's much we can do to stop that.

Other than doing what number nine, Erskine Lane had done is promote alternate active car use uses apart from the car by having bus passes and car share and and things like that for the tenants occupants.

But and I have a guarded hope that perhaps maybe the commercial areas after hours would be sufficient parking for um for those individuals.

But if it does go to 10, that's unlikely.

Um resident who called Kathy, um, you know, speaking about um the five visitor or having a visitor parking.

Um I think that's um um I'm I'm concerned about that.

Um I would certainly like to see more visitor parkings.

I think that's that's going to be a uh an issue through the day.

So it's um yeah, I don't know, guarded approval.

Council Lemmon, do you have anything you'd like to add?

Yeah, briefly.

Um, you know, I'm as a longtime resident of Eltham Road, um, I've had to recuse myself from all previous discussions or most previous discussions of this.

So um I'm late to the party in terms of expressing um general concerns and opinions.

But certainly I empathize with the people who have written written to council with their concerns about parking and traffic on Eltham Road in it.

And it does seem to me that if you're an overnight guest, you're gonna have to set your alarm to get up to move your car.

Because it's it's um you know, unless it's not policed, if it's not policed, you know, it might well be a free-for-all.

So um I I I think there are going to be the the um the owners will need to um make some decisions about how that is handled, I should think.

Um other than that, uh it's you know it's it's going to be impactful, but as my colleagues say, it's perhaps the right time for a project of this size at a um key intersection in this town.

I do think it's an imposing um structure, um perhaps more imposing than I envisioned or imagined.

Um, but you know that that's simply subjective.

Um so you know, like my colleague down down the way, I give my my three-quarters hearted approval.

Okay, thank you.

I I don't have a whole lot to add.

I mean, I I do think there's a little bit of an irony when we're dealing with a climate emergency that we're worried about not having enough parking spaces.

But that's just a general observation.

If we're going to encourage people to use automobiles less, then one would think that a development that's right on transit, close to the trails, etc., would be a good candidate for that.

But I I like the building.

I look forward to seeing it getting built, and and I especially look forward to the neighborhood amenity of the grocery store and the beautification of that corner.

So congratulations.

And um, with that, I will call the question.

All in favor, opposed.

So that's carried.

Thank you very much.

So next up, we have item D, which is late payment penalties on property taxes.

So if you would like to sneak away, we won't be offended.

But if you would like to stay, we won't be happy as well.

I think staff may have to let you out because I think the door might be locked.

Is it open?

Okay.

Okay.

Thanks for coming.

So I think with this, we'll let staff go through and then we will ask questions and then we will voice opinions.

Just uh a quick question out of curiosity.

I'm I see all the little circles there denoting people that are that are sort of linked up from staff.

I just do we know how many people are in the audience or on this are listening to us now?

I don't anyway.

It's more of a curious curiosity thing because I I it doesn't tell you what's happening on here.

Your worship, uh if I may I can answer that.

Sure.

Uh what I'm showing right now are five attendees.

There you go.

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, one, two, three, four.

And I know one of them is my wife.

So okay, staff.

Thank you, worship, and through you to the rest of council.

Uh, just to briefly summarize the report before you uh regarding late payment penalties on property taxes.

Council may or may not be aware, but certainly staff can reverse penalties on taxes that have been imposed because of what was perceived as late payment if we can show that the payment was indeed not late.

So if there was an error in posting a payment on taxes and we imposed a penalty, and then we later discover that the payment was actually received on time, we will reverse the penalties.

And I just wanted to make sure that that was clear.

Otherwise, legislation would not allow council to just arbitrarily waive a penalty.

That would not be permitted in the legislation.

However, the legislation legislation doesn't provide details about how we are supposed to determine when a payment is actually to be considered on time.

And that I believe is is in part what the main issue is in uh and and the topic of this report.

So I just wanted to remind council in this report of our current practice that uh the town of Uroyal, especially concerning online or telephone banking payments.

So the town has an agreement with uh its bank to receive online payments from all other financial institutions that participate in the program.

And under Payments Canada rules, the town and anybody on this signed up for this system, any any receiver of payments, must record the payment date according to when the payment was actually made.

That is what we are obligated to do.

Regardless of when we get the notification from the bank or when the funds actually are deposited into the to ViewRoyal's bank account, we do record the payment according to the payment date as listed on the electronic data interchange, or I call it the EDI file that we receive from the bank associated with that deposit that lists the payment date.

So that the online banking transaction is shown on the EDI file and there is a date noted with that transaction that is indicative of the time that the payment was made.

Perhaps they have different cutoff times.

I provided a copy of a screenshot of attached to the report of a sample of an online banking transaction confirmation with CIBC that does show that at least CIBC indicates that you know transactions submitted after 6 p.m.

Eastern time will be processed in two business days.

That's just an example, and different financial institutions institutions may treat them a little bit differently.

So the question is if we will record the payment date associated with when that transaction was actually originated, the question then is what documentation will we accept to show what that payment date was.

Our practice is currently that for online and telephone banking payments, we will only accept the EDI file that we get from the bank.

And primarily that's to protect the authenticity of the of the information.

I'm confused about that document, how it works, because you're saying on one hand that it shows when the payment was originated.

And yet in this case, let's just use Helmican Market because it's but I'm not only just worried about Helmican Market.

Um, but in this case, we know she originated the payment on July the 2nd before midnight.

So, how can the EDI date of when the payment was originated be different from the Helmican Market owner's screenshot of their bank statement?

Yeah, I I do appreciate that that certain apparent in in you know discrepancy.

Uh and and I myself do have trouble explaining that because it is possible for someone to make a payment on July 2 and for it to show on the EDI file as received on I'm sorry the transaction date associated with that transaction on the EDI file listed as July 5.

July 2 was a Friday unfortunately there is no indication of of time I don't know um particular of uh I mean there is a way of finding out which financial institution and and I can't speak for um each bank's rules about what time a payment has to be made in order for it to be considered that day.

You know, the the challenge is that none of this is in our control as far as the you know the timing of um how the financial institutions process the payments.

So I don't know whether uh a bank has a a particular time um that it must be received for, and and you know, quite honestly, I think quite often these time cutoffs are Eastern time, which makes it even more complicated for us.

But what I have always said to complaints of this nature, and and certainly there has been more than one, so you know, certainly this season and and possibly even in the past, what I have always said to them is please talk, please go and talk to your bank because the you're telling me you made it on this on July 2, for example, and yet the EDI file shows July 5.

So please go to your bank and help them to help us, ask them to help us understand why there is that discrepancy.

And I have always said that if they come back to us with an explanation from the bank associated with that transaction, and they can explain why that date said July 5 and not July 2, I would accept that documentation from the bank.

But you won't accept their own bank statement showing that the money came out of their bank account on the second.

We have not in the past at all accepted any documentation originated that is not that that has the no ability to um to be authenticated, you know, from us.

And I'm certain that 99.9% of our taxpayers would never think of doing anything, you know, that would be uh you know considered less reliable.

But the fact is that you know, Photoshop documents can be manipulated and so can PDFs with the right with the right documentation.

So so the question does go to authentication.

You know how can staff authenticate that you know for example I can take a screenshot of when I made a payment um take a screenshot of it send it to you and then go and cancel the payment later on.

How how you know maybe then I just put it in a day later when I do have the money in my bank account um and I'm none the wiser if I accept a screenshot, right?

So it's it's that kind of manipulation, and and and again, uh, you know, I'm and I'm certainly not saying that that any any taxpayer has has ever done anything like that, but it just opens up the possibilities.

So the question is, do we have authentic documentation?

And how can we assure that we have authentic documentation?

To eliminate that, but to eliminate putting staff in the position of having to kind of saying, well, I trust this one, but I might not trust that one.

Uh, we've taken that that judgment call, that subjectivity completely out of it, and we said we are gonna take the document from the bank because we know that there are protocols, multi-factor authentication protocols that this document is reliable and is authentic.

That's the position that we have taken in the past.

Okay, thank you.

Counselor Matson.

Yeah, one of the things I heard you say, Don, and so when when payment is made, and so when payment is made, that's when the person makes the payment, that's the date that that we count.

But it and you also said that that could be manipulated because they could pay that day, cancel that night and put it in the next day.

But but at the end of the day within four days in this case by July 5th, the money is in our bank.

It is is in our bank.

So we need to accommodate people who are paying making those payments on the first or whatever, even if it you know, and then it takes a weekend for it to get in.

Uh and it doesn't hurt us at all.

I mean, if you look at July 5th, the the money will be paid, and if it looks as if they've sent it electronically, I don't have a problem with us just counting it, making the assumption that these people put it in on the right date, and it's taken a few days to get there because in this case it was a $30 some odd thousand dollar check we received.

So let's try just to stick to questions.

I I know what you said, but I'm just trying to make the point is yeah, it doesn't hurt us at all if it takes the the extra two days it might have taken us.

Um you're charging somebody in this case either hundreds of dollars, if it's in the case of some of a household, but or three thousand dollars in the case of this person.

I think we should just make the assumption that if it sent electronically and it's in by the fifth in this case, uh that we accept those few days as transit.

Well, I think the question that you you would ask if I was to paraphrase your question, wouldn't the the fact that the money is in our bank account plus the resident or owner's you know affirmation that they had commenced the payment, um, you know, those two things would seem to add up to the fact that the payment was made.

Councillor Lemon.

Um Yeah, thank you, Don.

Um I've I've never paid my taxes online, and so this may be a naive question.

In order to pay my taxes online, and I perhaps I should have investigated this.

Do I need to do it as I pay my visa bill, etc., um on with in um on my bank's app, or do I go directly through a link on the Town of Uroil?

And if that is the case, um is there not something that comes to me back to me right now and says, thank you very much.

We've received your $2,245 or whatever.

Yes, certainly, if if I may.

Good question, actually.

And uh no, if you were to pay your taxes online, the system that we're talking about is uh through your financial institution and through your online banking app on your phone or on your computer.

And I think that um you know each financial institution may differ a little bit in you know the cutoff times that um you know that they require in order to uh show the payment as having been processed that day or the following day or the next business day or whatever the case may be.

So that's why there, you know, in my mind, there could be difference differences between one financial institution and another.

And uh, you know, to to just clarify on July 5, we got I don't know how many thousand of electronic payments and files from the bank telling us about those electronic payments.

The large majority of those payments were noted with a July 2 payment date.

So even though we didn't get the funds until July 5 or 6, if the payment date was shown as July 2, we credited that amount to the taxpayers' account as if it was received on on July 2, even though we didn't get the funds till several days later.

So that certainly is not an issue, and we do that all the time and we always have.

The parallel that I might do that that I I speak to in the report that that you know when I was thinking about this is if a person chooses to make a payment for property taxes by mail, they want to mail us a check we won't we have never accepted postmarks for July 2, even though that is the date they mailed that check.

And I mean it's not a perfect comparison I I I realize it's you know there's several days in between when a check is mailed, in an envelope is mailed, and we uh get it in town hall compared to an online payment.

It's not quite instantaneously, but it's you know certainly you know a day or two later.

So uh you know, so uh I I I just I just urge you to you know think about all of the choices that uh taxpayers have in making their property tax payments and and uh the time required that depending on which choice they've made to make their payment.

Do you have anything else, Councillor?

Thank you, John.

Councillor Mattson.

I'll go to Councillor Rogers first because he's first time, then I'll go to you.

Uh uh thank you, Don.

Um informative report and and I appreciate the the research and effort uh taken into this.

Um I'm looking at page two, which was the payment method, the approximate time and translation, and the payment uh recorded payment date.

So if if i i'm trying to think which one i want uh after hours drop box at town hall so um it's no longer july second it's um midnight or any other time it's saturday it's sunday but they put their check into the box and um the next business day you get it on the monday so uh none of those are considered late payments are they i i are they uh considered um beyond um and in due of penalty if a payment was dropped uh in our drop box at the front door on July 3, it would be considered late.

So how do you staff staff come in?

They they come first thing in the morning on the on the third and empty it.

Oh you come in on Saturday and empty it?

Yeah.

Yes.

Oh okay.

All right not aware of that.

Thank you.

Um then I'm going to your paragraph obligation to inform.

And you were saying there that um I you know references to the EDI and this is the the the specifics that for uh this tax year 2021 uh there were 32 payments starting 101000 with payment dates on any one of these dates EDA ADI dates um and you're saying that the property tax system does not contain the property owners' phone numbers, so contacting each would be a challenge to then verify.

You know, it it I get are you suggesting then that you're you would um make a decision well because the EDI date is obviously not uh July 2nd, that all these uh individuals would receive um a uh the penalty, and then it would be up to if anyone took exception to that.

I think what I'm hearing is saying that that individual would contact the bank, get the explanation from the bank, confirm that uh the payment was indeed made on July 2nd, and if that information was validated from the bank, then you would accept that and um not impose the penalty.

Yes.

Right.

So I I guess that's that's the question of those individuals that have uh expressed complaints and concerns did they follow up with the bank?

Did they get that explanation and was that explanation provided to staff with suitable reasoning.

Yes it was I I mean I can speak for only the taxpayers that I spoke to this to pass tax season.

And every single one I encouraged them to talk to their bank to ask the bank to provide us with documentation tied to that transaction that showed the origination date of that transaction.

And if that the origination date of that transaction was July 2 we would reverse the penalty and I I can say for all of the ones that I spoke to and I am not aware of a single one that any of my staff talked to that actually then came back with that documentation from the bank.

Now I I I don't have a I don't have an explanation for for what conversations happened between the individual and the bank but I can say that not one did and indeed um some of them came and paid the penalty.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

But yeah, I mean, just following up on that, but we also know that for some reason the information is not right.

I mean, d taking this this example, so July 2nd, Friday night, July 5th, Monday morning, money in the bank.

When else could the taxpayer have initiated that transaction and have it come into the bank on Monday morning?

Because most banks will not process payments on the non-business days.

So if they made it on a Saturday or Sunday, it would be fair to presume that we would get the money month Tuesday.

And and this, your worship, I appreciate is a bit of the challenge is that uh my belief is and I cannot prove it, that different financial institutions have different processing times and cutoff times.

So it kind of depends.

I I believe that sometimes if I made a payment at 6 a.m.

on July 2, that EDI file um it may even be one of the ones that's downloaded on July 2.

Some of the banks may perhaps process the same day, depending on the timing of when the payment was made.

And again, it might be East Coast time that that these these times are set with the financial institutions.

And uh, you know, I I think it is possible for sometimes that transaction to be the same day.

So if we extrapolate that, it is very possible, in my mind at least, again, I cannot prove it, that uh a payment um on uh on uh an EDI transaction date showing July 5.

To me, it is actually conceivable that that payment could have been made on July 4 or July 5, depending on those particular financial institution rules.

So let's wrap up questions and then maybe we can get to opinions.

So hi Don.

So on when I make a payment electronically, my bank immediately when I push the button to send the, you know, whether the money goes or not, I don't know, but I immediately get a confirmation number with all the information money would have gone to, you know, to the town hall, how to the town of you roll, how much it was with the date and the time on it.

Is that sufficient evidence to say that I've made the payment then?

No.

I would I would want corroboration from the bank with an explanation for why the EDI file is different.

I uh l let me qualify that.

With the if I was able to find a match between the transaction identifier in the EDI file and the document that you bring me, that would be pretty convincing, right?

So that's what I'm looking for.

I'm looking at an EDI file that has a unique identifier.

Any document that that comes to me that is is you know you know I could I could you know reasonably assume that it is an authentic document and it has that identifier on it with a with a different date, I I would want an explanation from the bank to say, well, you know, how is this even possible for the same transaction to have two different dates?

Okay, but just have to follow up here.

So on the document that I'm referring to, it's got I paid $2,860 or or whatever the number is, right?

You know, 92 cents.

On the EDAI file, you'd have the exact same number.

You would have received the same payment as it showed that I sent out to the town.

Like, is that I mean, the likelihood of coincidentally the exact same number payment being made is, you know, are slim and none.

So so my question back to you then uh through your worship is how do I know that how do I know that you didn't initiate the payment, print off the confirmation, subsequently go and cancel that payment?

How do how do I know that?

You wouldn't.

So I mean, I'm I'm gonna jump in.

And then do you have a question, Counselor Kwalowicz?

No.

So is it true that it would I don't even know where to start, Don.

I mean, I I think I'm presuming there'd be penalties for any resident or business that was to present forged documentation to the town.

Right?

I mean, it's not acceptable to present forged documentation ever.

So I'm presuming that the law would be on our side in that case, if if in the unlikely event a res a resident was to present forged documentation of payment.

Uh your worship, uh I I have no way of uh I have, you know, staff don't have the resources to authenticate documents.

So we wouldn't know, we wouldn't even know to whether a document was challenged or uh, you know, would we wouldn't have the resources to challenge whether or not a document is is authentic or not.

At the crux of this, it is staff's choice and decision and discretion to charge a penalty.

Right?

So with the I'm gonna use Helmican Market because it's out there, it's in the public, they don't mind us talking about it.

You know that that money was in your bank account Monday morning.

You know that that was the next business day after taxes were due.

You know their record of paying their taxes for God knows how many years has been impeccable.

So, I mean, I'm gonna ask you this.

I don't mean to put you on the spot, but why would staff choose, and that's what you're doing, to penalize them.

Your worship, we didn't make a choice to penalize them differently from any other taxpayer whose payment arrived with an EDI transaction date of July 5th.

So I think we are agnostic.

In fact, we don't even handle the file.

It it goes into our system automatically.

But then isn't it possible that the the measures that we're using are just not the right ones?

I mean, I have spoken to through mayors, and and I don't want to get any finance staff in trouble with others, but I've spoken to four other jurisdictions in the CRD today, all who have told me this would not happen in their jurisdiction.

I mean, one of them, Central Santage, even accepts a postmark as, you know, if if the mailed envelope is postmarked for but before July 2nd, they do not charge a penalty.

So is it not possible that we are being overly harsh?

I mean, the it is our residents, it's our businesses, they're stakeholders in our community.

And when these penalties were were introduced, they certainly well preceded online payments.

And you would also have to presume that when these penalties were introduced, the main objective of them was to penalize people who definitely didn't pay their taxes, not someone who might have, for the sake of a few hours, had a problem.

So I really struggle with this.

I I I don't know what the answer is, but I I think the fact that other municipalities very clearly answered me that in their jurisdiction this would not happen in the exact scenario that we've been talking about.

Um I struggle with it, and and I'm not sure what the answer is because I I know I know you have a need for a clear black and white solution so that you can't have residents arguing it.

But I do wonder if this bank documentation, I mean, if if a resident brings in their bank statement that shows the money came out of their bank account, I personally have real issues with the the idea or the notion that we would think they doctored that.

I I don't think that's how we should be dealing with our residents.

And I I don't mean to be harsh.

I know I sound harsh, but I I really feel strongly about this.

And I think there's a principal element of fairness that is missing.

So with that pre- I'm gonna go down to Matson.

And then I'll come to you.

I just have another question.

Okay.

So um Don, the um, you know, and I appreciate you doing the research with the other municipalities.

I don't know how many 80 or but it seemed like 80 percent of other municipalities relied on the EDI.

If that's what I'm leading your your research on.

Is that correct?

Uh yes, thank you.

And uh through your worship, yes, certainly, you know, some of them do accept other methods of verifying that payment date.

So I didn't want to exclude that as well.

So I think the mayor is absolutely correct there are other municipalities that do consider other forms of proof of payment um valid and indeed some municipalities uh accept postmarks as proof of payment so so i i think your worship if i may suggest that while staff up to this point in time do not choose to uh apply a penalty uh you know necessarily differently um we we fall on our past practice and we apply that pat plat so excuse me past practice uh consistently and reliably to all of our taxpayers should council direct for our policy to be changed that's where our choice comes in my only ask is that the policy is crystal clear so that staff are not put into a position of having to choose to accept one thing over another using a a judgment call on on the authenticity of a document.

I I think that's a fair call and I think if there's a motion coming out of this I I would I would hope that it would direct staff to prepare a policy and you know, and that would but anyhow let's that was going to be my comment.

I'd like to see a new policy whereby we're not even so much more flexible, but for example, I guess I know staff doesn't want to have to go to the trouble of investigating each one.

But in this case, say it as long as the payment had come in, you know, other than the mail one, which we could deal with if there's a plate on a separate matter, as long as the payment is in our bank by the fifth, just make the assumption that they tried to give it to us on time, and even if they'd missed by a day, the reality is we've got the money.

They we aren't out anything, and if it's by the you know, if it was in there by the fifth, you just count it.

I yeah, I mean, I personally think there's some merit to it, and we don't want to design the policy now, but if if the money is in our bank account, the business day following the due date, I mean, to me, that is is perfectly and utterly reasonable.

I mean, I I mean, we'll get to a motion.

Others?

Um Councillor Rogers, have you got anything?

Um, yeah, no, and this this becomes a uh a really large issue of fairness.

Um, you know, if it's going to be the business day following the due date, so in this case, the 5th or whatever Monday was.

So if if all and so this doesn't apply just to like online banking, this applies to uh those individuals that drop checks off at the hall.

Because if it's if it's going to be, you know, it checks our next business day, so why wouldn't we make it so that uh EDI is our next business day?

But you know, I understand there's the thing with the banks.

But, you know, if we're going to say next business day, then we do so across the board.

So I don't think we want to design the policy tonight.

That would make in my expectation.

Okay, thank you.

On my left?

Are we taking comments or questions?

Sure, go for comments.

I think, well, you know, first off, I I want to say to Don, we recognize that we have one of the most skilled finance professionals in the province.

So we appreciate that and we thank you.

Um, I uh to the point, um, I think we can broadly assume that pretty much zero percent or very close to zero percent of our residents are are out to cheat the town.

Um so you know if we can develop a policy that takes that into consideration that that um you know people who are say who could show I paid on July 2nd or whatever you know whatever the date is in a year um that we can take that as the truth and apply it that would work for me counselor Kwalovich Well, I think it's uh this discussion's evolved over the last couple of weeks.

Certainly uh the prevalence of e-government seems to have uh crept into this discussion, and we find ourselves with banking payments with timestamps that uh clearly uh have met the requirement to be on time.

Um I I support uh softening my stance a bit on this.

I would like to support something where staff feels comfortable uh allotting for the payment without uh uh burdensome amount of work, uh fact checking every single resident who comes in with a late payment.

So I think it's really a balance of being fair to the community, uh balancing uh electronic payments uh and whatnot with with fairness.

So uh I I I don't want to get into the direction on how that's gonna look, but it sounds like uh it's going it's going to happen so um but yeah i'll support uh something to that extent okay thank you so just to explain my frustration a little bit i mean i and i think don even with your comments you yourself realize that there's a whole lot of gray in here right that it's it's not black and white with the ed i that we're relying on and it just seems to me like it there is gray.

I mean, at the moment, if you make your your payment at noon on Friday, um or whatever it may be, and that money comes out of your account, you can't stop well, you can stop it, I think until midnight Eastern time.

So then the money is in cyberspace.

It's not in your bank account anymore, it's not in the town's bank account, but it's coming to our bank account, and the person who sent it can't stop it.

So whose money is it?

Um, you know, I just and then and if a check is dropped in the door at 11 55 p.m.

on the due date, the likely thing is that that check's not being deposited to into the bank to the next business day.

So I I don't I don't want you to think I'm harsh or I I I've I just as I said, I just have a real problem with this.

And I think when the province itself, so the Minister of Finance will do a ministerial waiver of a penalty with simply a bank statement or something shown.

At least that's what the Ministry of Finance staff told me.

Um and I know with our business over the years, because believe it or not, in the 25 years that I've ran that, we have on occasion um forgot to pay our PST by the exact time.

And I know when I've written to the province and said that I did, in fact, do it in time on the bank end, that they have forgiven the penalty.

So I I think I think we need to work on something that is a little more flexible.

I feel terrible for the people who paid the penalties this year, both because I think there was over 30 of them.

Um, you know, and that's a lot.

That's a lot of people who've been caught up with a penalty.

Um, but I think what I'm hearing from council is for staff to work on a policy that you can bring back well in time for next tax season.

Um, that maybe answers some of these concerns that have been raised.

And I think you pretty clearly know what they are.

Okay, yeah, yeah.

No, I was also in terms of this year.

I know we can't give them the way it stands now is we can't give the money back this year.

But can we next year give them the money back and just simply add it to next year's taxes?

Because it's again, we would just be holding their money for a year at that.

Would you mean the penalty, the ones that paid penalties this year?

For but had sort of gotten, I think as staff said it came in by the fifth, and they then had a penalty.

I think the problem with that is that I mean I I'm with you on that.

In fact, it I mean, I wouldn't have any problem with giving anyone who paid a penalty this year their their money back if they had made it on the second.

But I think the problem with it, and and Don and Kim have both mentioned this is where do you stop?

Right?

Do you go to the year before as well?

Um so I I I fully agree with you.

Um but I think that may be opening a can of worms that is too big is my two cents on that.

Question you worship.

Go ahead.

Yeah.

So um staff, um, you've provided two alternatives um for us to consider.

Um, you know, hearing the discussion and and if you like the will of council, um, which of these two alternatives uh best um reflects that discussion.

Well, I think we're definitely just we're heading to a motion to refer to staff to design a policy.

So moved.

Okay, so counselor Mattson is is moving that the matter be referred to staff to work on a policy.

Fair enough.

I second so moved by Councillor Mattson, seconded by Councillor Lemmon.

Okay, everyone's good with that.

Yeah, so it's it's it's a broad uh it's not intent and talking about electronic, it's talking about um, I would think the next business day following.

Yeah, I mean I I mean with without wanting to design, I mean, I you know, the the hard deadline for having the check here, I have no problem with that.

I mean, I think that's the way we've done it for for years, and that shouldn't change.

You can't you can't all of a sudden say that you can run in a check the next business day, right?

It's no that the money so it I think we need to leave it in staff's capable hands to um to design a policy that works for so that it's black and white enough for them, and black and white enough for our residents, but also is fair.

Fair.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

So I I guess it just if we're speaking to that your worship, I think that if we're talking about next business day, um, you know, that's what I I would think is is fair, including the checks.

So I I would that's what I'd be looking for.

I mean I I yeah, I think it's yeah.

We can argue about that when it comes in.

Yeah, when when it comes back.

Okay.

All in favor?

Opposed, that's carried.

Thank you, Don.

And I just wanted to echo Councillor Levitt's comments about how wonderful our finance staff is, and uh these comments aren't in any way to take away from the fact that they do a great job.

So thank you, Don.

So disappeared moving as she's already left.

That's right.

Center flowers.

So next we're on to advisory committee meetings.

There is a recommendation there.

I need to I need to sort this out, Your Worship.

Sir, what out?

Well, um, to be, I guess my concern is uh with the recommendation is that it'd be electronic until uh until June 30th.

Um, but we are now allowing um the public to to attend if it wanted here to uh to council meetings.

So if we are open, um why would we still expect um advisory committees to meet on electronically?

Sarah?

Thank you, your worship.

The thought was originally when we were talking about this, when I set set about to write this report, it was actually in mind to change the advisory committee procedures to set up the alternating meetings and meet in person.

And the more I thought about it, I got to the section that talked about, and we will meet together as a joint committee to receive joint presentations.

And I thought, uh oh, that's where I think the problem comes in, is that we really can't do that.

Have the public have joint meetings, have staff, and have everybody be in here.

And then I thought, even having staff and having a 14-member group in here plus public come in, um, is rather tricky, even if it's not a joint meeting, um, because it would be just really kind of I think an awkward format to have that type of meeting in because normally the group would be on the floor around tables.

Where and how would everybody fit in and sit at that meeting and have the public come in?

So this facilitates by continuing in the format that the groups have been meeting in, it would continue to facilitate everyone's participation from their homes in a safe environment and still be physically distant.

I'll move stop recommendation.

Thank you.

Okay, slots on the floor.

Second.

Just think in the time of COVID now, it's probably far easier just to keep going the way we are rather than bring people in there because a lot of them may not feel comfortable having a meeting at this time.

Councillor Kwitz, do you have anything to add?

I concur.

Councillor Rogers.

Yeah, um, I I still have uh concerns.

I think um when you consider there's what nine, ten chairs.

Um and I think um one of the problems with um the electronic is and I get a sense that there's not a great deal of of uh participation um and it it just seems to stifle um um you know real good discussion of of issues.

I know it's only a few meetings, um what probably three, um, and I certainly concur with staff on if there were a joint meeting then i think that should be electronic but um i i think going out to june um for electronic meetings when you consider there are still the options of making sure that people are vaccinated that um you know much like you would have any other meetings goodness you know we're going full hog on on hockey hockey games and uh all the sports things so if we can crowd people into seats two feet apart um i i really think it's um not consistent with with Dr.

Henry's allocating and allowing the public.

I think the one rebuttal to that that I would have is that when you go to a hockey game or uh sports event, you have the comfort of knowing the person next door to you has been vaccinated.

Yeah.

And you don't have that here with our advisory committees.

We can't ask for any proof of vaccination.

So I think there's a lot of different variables that one has to consider in terms of our staff and the committee members.

I I don't disagree with you.

I mean, I I don't like the electronic meetings, and I would really like to see them back in person.

And if things change and it can happen sooner, then we can always revoke this, and and they can meet sooner.

So I but I think it makes sense just moving forward.

So we can feel it out and see if we can bring it up there.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm going to call the question.

All in favor, opposed, that's carried.

Next is item F, which we need someone to move staff's recommendation.

Moved by Councillor Rogers.

Seconded by Councillor Matson, because he likes the project so much.

Yes.

All in favor.

Opposed, that's carried.

You look disappointed.

Were you hoping to make a presentation?

I was prepared to make a presentation.

I did want to point out to council that the um while the original estimate was some $250,000 for this particular site.

We do anticipate significant savings by having BC Transit uh do a lot of work for us, but it's still going to be very expensive for us to conclude preparation of the site before we actually begin development.

Uh it's likely to be six figures still.

And so that money spent would would probably um eliminate the community amenity amount that we received.

You mean by the time we're completely finished with it?

By the time we're ready to begin uh introducing uh actual usable amenities.

Like that there are some um some issues with the slope of the the site itself that need to be addressed, and that can be very expensive.

Right, yeah, yeah.

Is there any way we can embarrass the province into I am working on that behind the scenes yeah telling them to stick their park would probably be I'm just trying to ask them to give us a bit more yeah councillor Rogers thanks uh C A uh raised a good point so um is is the work that we're um arranging or having uh done by the overall um crew if you like would that also include leveling um there is some grading in in that um okay scope of work as well thank you.

Okay, so all in favor, opposed.

That's carried.

So next we're on to bylaws, the community amenity contributions reserve bylaw.

I guess I'll move first, second, and third on my understanding that it just says we can spend it the money for whatever we think suitable in terms of public use.

Yeah.

So first, second, and third of bylaw 1080.

Second with a question.

Okay, so moved by councillor Mattson, seconded by Councillor Rogers.

Go ahead.

Yeah, thank you.

Uh just a question to the staff there.

Um we had a um, sorry, you had done a report to on uh whole community um amenity contributions, and you had about seven items.

So those seven items you'd example uh gave an example to arts, parks, housing, um, those would be the the kind of things that we'd expect.

Yep, it's totally up to council of the day well i i'm just referring to those examples that uh so those would be the kind of examples that we would be uh considering as being of public benefit new mercedes for the mayor would also fit in there okay just seeking clarification it's anything we want yeah it's it's council discretion okay so all in favor oppose that's carried next we have bylaw one zero seven nine for adoption.

Move adoption.

Second.

Yep.

All in favor, opposed.

That's carried.

Can we give this other one another day?

Our last item.

What I want to do with this, and I'm gonna be pretty ruthless about procedure.

I want Kim to introduce and speak to it, and then we're gonna have questions, and we're not gonna have long-winded statements that end with some sort of a question.

They're going to be questions, and then we're gonna go to a motion on the floor, and then we will debate it.

So that's how I see it sort of falling out in an attempt to keep us on track and respectful.

So Kim, I'm going to go to you.

Thank you, your worship.

Um, this code of conduct is rather timely because we did get an announcement uh from the province about the future requirements for a code of conduct.

The new legislation that we expect to see effective in the spring of 2022 does require local government to consider a code of conduct within six months of a general local election.

And so while we're proceeding with this process currently, council will be asked in 2023 to again review the code of conduct and uh revise or otherwise uh in in a public meeting and so that's um it's that's great that we're on top of the game in terms of the process so far so what i would like to do is is is share the document with you um and um i intend on walking through the document and the reason i'm sharing it is so that we can all be on the same page at the same time and of course for the benefit of the general public and so in terms of the purpose it is intended that um we all benefit from the code of conduct.

You know, whether or not we have an active role within the code of conduct uh the point's been made by counselor rogers that staff isn't included in this.

But generally speaking, everybody will benefit from this code of conduct, including the general public.

And so the scope of this code of conduct includes council members and advisory body members.

In terms of the definition, we made one change to the definition of confidential information to include that section of the community charter that applies.

Specifically, section 117 of the community charter deals with records that are held in confidence and uh matters that are dealt with in uh in camera meetings.

I should point out to you that the definition of member is important for you to understand because member includes advisory body member or council member, and so this speaks to councillor rogers' concern that um this code of conduct doesn't actually apply to advisory body individuals.

It does when you look at the definition of member because the term member includes not just council members but members of the advisory bodies.

So both advisory committees are included within this code of conduct.

We have added a definition of staff because there are references to staff within the uh the body of the document.

It means not just our employees but also contract employees, and it includes those staff that support advisory bodies.

The foundational principles described within the document, most of these originate with the work done by the LGMA and the UBCM.

You'll find that these foundational principles are common in a great number of the code of conducts adopted by other municipalities.

Item at the request of Councilor Rogers.

He pointed out at our last meeting that openness is very important for him, and it speaks to being transparent in what we do.

The commitment to responsible conduct.

This area describes how we are committed to this particular conduct.

And again, we've added openness to the list.

Section six describes principles that are formed the foundation of the code of conduct.

And section seven expands on some of the terms that we've used earlier in the document.

In other words, integrity is demonstrated by a series of different behaviors that are described within the code of conduct.

Similarly, respect is expanded to describe behaviors for members.

And again, we follow through with a similar approach to demonstrate what accountability will look like and what that behavior will be.

Leadership and collaboration is viewed as one behavior.

And so while it appears to be two items, it's been identified as one within the document.

Section eight addresses conflicts of interest.

It refers to the community charter and does not repeat the language of the charter.

So a reference to the community of charter does require that if you want to read the details with respect to the statutory requirements, the community charter is the source document to be looking.

This section also does speak to the use of a town solicitor to address questions about real or perceived conflict of interest.

Section 9 describes the use of town property, assets, and premises.

There is a corresponding policy that regulates the use of town property, assets, and premises as well.

And so that would be the document that staff would be looking to in terms of how town equipment is used.

And essentially it's used for town purposes and not other purposes.

Section 10 describes confidentiality of information.

Section 11 discusses reporting, recording, and retaining information.

And it the section impresses upon us that you know all of us, all members are responsible to ensure that all information collected, produced, or obtained in the course of his or her duties, whether written oral or in electronic format is as accurate as possible.

And so there's an expectation that when we believe another person on council or uh a member of a committee is misunderstanding that there's a requirement that you try to make sure that clarity is achieved.

Section 12 describes the use of social media.

During our last meeting, council members uh pointed out, Councillor Kowalowicz pointed out that item 12b should be deleted, and then instead of deleting it, I've amended it.

Uh the previous version read that council members will not report council decision making by way of their social media profiles and websites before the town has released.

And so I've struck that language and replaced it with that council members will use caution in reporting, ensuring that any material that they publish is accurate, precise, and communicates the intent of council.

And that mirrors what uh what other codes of conduct have said.

And we've also added the last item in this list, information that may compromise the safety or security of the public or public systems.

A good example of that would be, for example, information related to the RCMP or how the police operate.

Item 13 is the informal complaint procedure.

Item 14, the formal complaint procedure.

There was some concern about the level of discretion to which the chief administrative officer might have.

And whether or not the chief administrative officer would actually investigate a complaint himself.

And so I've clarified this item to make it clear that the CAO will not be doing any investigations.

The next change is in item V.

And here again, either conduct an investigation themselves.

That's not going to happen.

Conclude if an investigation is required.

There are there will be some instances where a complaint might come up and it will be a misunderstanding that can be clarified and doesn't really require an investigation.

So that's how this particular paragraph applies.

The paragraph in green, paragraph VI, this is a paragraph that's been removed from another section of the document.

It's not a change.

It seemed to make more sense if it was located in this particular spot.

And again, the III, if the chief administrative officer decides not to arrange an investigation as opposed to not conducting investigations.

And in terms of paragraph eight, I have deleted language that discusses conducting investigations themselves.

And so now it reads that the chief administrative officer will retain a neutral third-party investigator.

And I've deleted the remainder of that paragraph to make it clear that there isn't going to be an option.

It will be a third-party investigator and none other.

And so this is where the paragraph was was removed.

For this item 13, the uh the chief investigative officer language has been deleted.

The investigator will be providing a report.

The chief invest the uh chief administrative officer won't be doing an investigation at all.

And those are the changes that I have made.

Now I have added a couple of things, um, some examples of um related legislation.

Within the community charter, section 105 describes restrictions on accepting gifts.

Now that the District of Sanish has chosen to actually put within the code of conduct the language that is within the charter.

We have a media communications policy.

It speaks to who represents the town of Your Royal to the media.

We have a council staff communications policy, wherein your communications are with the chief administrative officer as opposed to the various departments.

We have a policy regarding reports to council and their content.

We have a purchasing policy.

And we have an employees workplace bullying and harassment policy.

Now, Councilor Rogers did provide me a document on October the 25th with a host of changes.

And when I read through that document, I concluded that what council currently has on their plate is already the business of council.

And while council did refer uh council Rogers' concerns to me, uh, I did review the um the information that that Councilor Rogers provided at the time.

I didn't make these changes because they were more or less consistent with the uh the body of the existing document.

The changes that Council Rogers proposed on the 25th of October required wholesale changes, essentially changing much of the document in a very significant way.

And I thought that that was not my purview because it's already a document that council owns, and it's up to council to determine what changes are required if they're going to be wholesale changes.

And so that is the uh end of my presentation, your worship.

Okay, thank you, Kim.

So we're gonna go to questions, and I really do want to emphasize that what we want is questions, and then when everyone has exhausted their questions, I will ask for motion to be put on the floor, and then we'll debate the merits of the overall document at that point.

Councillor Mattson.

So I do have some questions.

Part of this is some of this stuff seems really open to interpretation at heart, and so maybe you could just explain to me how this isn't.

Like if I go to page 423, and it goes under integrity.

And so integrity is demonstrated by the following behaviors.

And you know, follow-through of commitments and a timing behavior.

I mean, how do you quantify and qualify this?

Correct errors in a time be transparent and reasonable manner.

Make informed, well-reasoned decisions by directing their minds to merits of the matter before for consideration, ensuring they act on the basis of relevant information, legal implications, and consideration of consequences.

So I mean, I could there's a whole bunch of them like that.

I just don't know how you'd ever interpret these in a way that's you know the same for everybody.

And yeah, I mean, so so that's one question, and and there's a bunch of others that are sort of like that.

Um I go to Damien's favorite, like number 12, and I I look at those things in terms of what you have to do in terms of using your social media, like every time if I was to send or someone was to send me a note or a message on social media if I actually used my and it was had misinformation in there, I would be at fault if I didn't go in there and correct it, like you know, and subject to some sort of penalty.

I mean that that's that's what this says.

And so, how does how does that work?

I mean, okay, so there's two questions.

So let's stop there before you get too far ahead.

I mean, I I'm gonna just take I'll I'll go to Kim, but I'm gonna take a crack at the first one and say that uh like item seven standards of responsible conduct.

I mean, you're absolutely right in terms of interpretation, but a code of conduct, I mean, surely those are all conducts that we should aspire to and and to behave and not immediately go to the idea of how we're going to punish someone who doesn't.

But I'll I'll let Kim answer and the social media one.

Kim?

I'm I'm looking for the session on social media.

Oh, okay.

Um and so your question was with respect to which item.

Oh media.

Well Ron's first first one was page our page four, the integrity section, and how how subjective some of the judgment on those issues could be rather than objective.

Well, I think the message that's trying to be given there is the information that you use to make a decision is information that's pertinent to the subject at hand.

You know, whether it's the content of a report or whether it's a presentation.

Some decisions are made but using other criteria, you know, the hidden agenda, the uh the information that's not available.

And so what this session does is it encourages council members to put their minds to the actual matter before them for consideration.